148. MyMaine Birth: Katie’s Autonomous Maine Coast Memorial Hospital Birth Story

Katie: 0:00

I think it was like 36 weeks in like three days or something. I was having contractions at work. They weren't really, I didn't try to time them. I was I was working with clients. Like every hour on the hour, I get a new client, and I'm having contractions for like five hours at work. And I was just like, huh. So on my lunch break, I did actually time a few of them. They weren't, they weren't very intense. And I was like, interesting. They are like five minutes apart. Um, and it just sort of fizzled out. I came home and I took a bath. They did go away, but then they came back, but they didn't amount to anything. And I went to sleep and I woke up the next day and they they didn't come back. And that was right before Christmas. I saw Jarny the the following Monday, and I I typically am not one to get checks in pregnancy. I know they're not always super valuable. I mean, for some people they are, and that's fine, but for me, I just don't typically want them. But I I was really curious, and I know the risks and the benefits, you know. For me, I was like, maybe there isn't a whole lot of benefit, but I I really was curious. So Jarney checked me and it was like three and a half centimeters, yeah, three and a half centimeters dilated already, which looking back, I I had like you know, I was like, should I have done that? Because I was more on high alert, like, is this baby gonna come anytime? I knew that I could be three centimeters for like six weeks, and that didn't. And so I don't know if I this is our last baby, but if we I if I were to ever get pregnant again, I probably wouldn't opt for that, but I don't regret it just because it it had me a little bit on edge.

Angela: 1:45

But um I did plus the thing, like you know the risks and the benefits, and it's also each pregnancy you can feel differently about each thing that comes up, make different dis decisions, even with like each pregnancy. And there's no right or wrong to this. It's just like knowing the information, knowing you know, like what you're getting into and not like being coerced into anything and like making your own decisions, you know, like there's no right or wrong.

Katie: 2:10

Yeah, I I'm so glad you said that because absolutely. And I know with my first, like I had much more rigid thinking. I had taken a hypnobirthing class, and that was still great. I used hypnobirthing all of my pregnancies, but I did have more of like a rigid thinking of what the quote unquote right thing was to do. Thankfully, I've let that go. But yeah, so it was an informed decision.

Angela: 2:38

I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer, experienced dual, birth educator, and your host here on the My Made Birth Podcast. This is a space where we shared a real life story of family experts, and unique birth experiences, and a beautiful data. Every birth story deserves to be heard and celebrated. Whether you're a seed-to-be mom, a seasoned mother, or simply interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you. Hi. Well, to get started, would you share a little bit about you and your family?

Katie: 3:21

Yeah, so I'm Katie. My husband is Colin. Uh, we have two boys and now our little daughter. We live on MDI. I work as a mental health therapist. I'm working towards a specialty in perinatal mental health. Yeah, and and we just, like I said, we live in the on MDI and trying to think of what else we do. We kind of our kids take up most of our time, but we love to do things like explore the area and go on little staycations when we can on MDI. So that is us in a very small nutshell.

Angela: 3:58

Yeah, that's definitely my favorite part about living in Maine. Like, you don't really have to go that far to go on vacation, right?

Katie: 4:04

Yeah, we hope we hope to eventually go on vacations. You know, we have family in Florida and other states. Maybe I I admire people who can take their kids on planes and stuff, but we are not, we're not there. We've gone to Storyland and Santa's village a couple of times, and that was like, I'm not sure we're ready for this. Oh, yeah, no, it's been great. We love to explore. We've we've been in a Sabago area to camp, and we've camped in New Hampshire a couple of times, so we we do love camping, and but even just camping like 10 minutes down the road has actually turned out to be really fun. Uh yeah. Close to home with now three kids. Um, yeah, that's fun.

Angela: 4:45

Oh, three. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so people can hear the first two parts of your birth stories and the other episodes, but just for like a quick refresher for anyone that hasn't heard those episodes, would you just give like a brief overview of like those experiences?

Katie: 5:01

Yeah. So my first birth was a very traumatic induction turn cesarean for what they call failure to progress. That involved some, I would even say coercion into being induced. I didn't I didn't want to be induced. Baby and I were healthy. It was, I was, I'm putting in air quotes post-states, and I had elevated blood pressure, but the blood pressure, I was taking my blood pressure at home and it was fine. It was nerves. I didn't know how to advocate for myself or that I could. So yeah, that in a nutshell was an induction turn cesarean. According to my first ultrasound, I was 42 weeks when the cesarean happened, but based off of ovulation, I very strongly suspect he was not 42 weeks. And so I think I touched on it in the podcast episodes, but I had two miscarriages in between. One was pretty early at four and a half, five-ish weeks, and then the other was a silent miscarriage discovered at 18 weeks. And so that was that was pretty traumatic as well. I had a DE for that. And then yeah, I took took some time to heal, but then had a very, very healing V-back at 41 and 6 with my second son. And that was very little intervention. I mean, technically it was a spontaneous labor, but I did get two membrane sweeps, which are I know you know, a form of induction, but I was avoiding a cesarean because I went to MDI hospital and they, as many hospitals don't want to do, they didn't like or wouldn't really induce VBAC moms, which I didn't want to be induced anyway, but I was not up for just scheduling a repeat cesarean. So for me, the risks of a membrane sweep or getting two of them outweighed the risk of just going for a repeat cesarean. So, and that baby, who's now three and a half, he was nine and a half pounds with a 15-inch head. And uh, with my first son, the OB at the time, it wasn't through MDI, was like, oh, well, his head was just really big and he couldn't fit. Well, my first son was eight pounds 10 ounces, and his head was 14 and a half inches, and he was 21 inches long, and this baby was my second baby was significantly larger than that. So it was kind of like a ha. You were not correct. Um, so yeah, that is in a very small nutshell. Those two births and then my pregnancies in between. I actually won't touch on it today, but before my youngest, who's now just over three weeks old, I did have a stillbirth at 25 weeks. I'm not quite ready to go into detail about it, but I don't mind commenting on the fact that that was due to genetic abnormalities. Uh she had, we found out when she was born that she was a girl and she had a syndrome called Wolf Hirschworn syndrome. And so, yeah, not quite ready to touch on that. I might come back around later on, but that was an induced labor as well. And for what it was, it was as peaceful as it could be. And then the reason I touch on that is because that very much changed just my feelings. I was very much not scared of birth or pregnancy, even though I had had two losses already. But to have a baby who was so sick really produced a lot more fear this time around for myself specifically, because Wolf Herschhorn syndrome is so rare. I think it's like one in 80,000 pregnancies result. In it might even be one in 80,000 live births. So it might even be more common in pregnancy. I can't remember the exact statistic, but it's it is quite rare. Um, and we didn't find out until the anatomy scan. So we I declined, you know, genetic screening because I was like, you know, it won't change anything. And then to sort of be side blindsided by that was really hard. So I bring that up because like I said, it it really shifted my feelings and and turned out I did have more fears about birth this time around with my first V back. I didn't really have any. And yeah, so that that led to our our newest baby. Um, so yeah. Oh my goodness, Katie, I'm so sorry to hear that. Thanks. I've I've made peace with it. It's still I still have a lot of grief around it, but but I've accepted it as part of my story. We talk about her and yeah, really try to integrate that as much as one can. That loss was a year ago on January 28th, and our daughter was born January, our our youngest daughter was born January 12th. So yeah, lots of feelings. But um, like I said, I've I've made peace with it. I've accepted it as part of my story, and it's still like an ongoing grieving process. But being a mental health therapist, I think helps, and then working towards pain a perinatal mental health specialty really does help just conceptualizing and then knowing what I have needed in terms of my grief. That's not to say that it wasn't and isn't hard, but in terms of like just integrating it into this is my life, this is my story, and that was my daughter's story, and this story is my second daughter's story. That's just kind of where I'm at. So yeah.

Angela: 11:06

Yeah, wow. So uh this happened a year ago, yeah, January. So what unfolded after that? Because I'm it was probably just a few short months later that you're pregnant again. So, how did uh that go for you?

Katie: 11:25

Yeah, so my husband and I, so I I will say that that I think I said it was an induced labor, and I did technically have a V back, although it's interesting that providers don't uh I it's not malicious, I think it's more of like risk calculation for for my more recent uh vaginal birth. Um, they don't count it as a birth, which I have some feelings about, but I also know it's a birth. So um anyway, so she so that daughter, her name is Evie, she was born January 28th, and um my husband and I we knew we still wanted another baby, like that, you know, that was something that we very quickly realized um when going through all of the pregnancy testing and uh tons of scans after the fact, and we we visited with the NICU team and all of that. Like during that, we were like, I I don't ever want to go through this again. And I think that was more of just like a shock and trauma response. Um, because that wasn't true, but I understand where I was coming from at the time. So we knew we knew we wanted to try again. We were hoping to we're not really good planners. I'll preface it by saying that we're not good planners. We had hoped to improve our diets, and and you know, our daughter's syndrome was not connected with any we did do genetic testing as ourselves or on ourselves as the parents, and it was determined that her genetic syndrome was what they call de novo. So it was random. But knowing what I know about fertility, that doesn't mean that maybe I didn't have an egg that wasn't optimally uh healthy, or that my husband didn't have, you know, optimally healthy sperm. So we really went into it trying to improve our fertility, like just doing what we could because that felt good and like taking time to care for ourselves outside of trying to conceive. And so we focused on improving our diets, and I started supplementing with a preconception. I used parallel vitamins, and they have like a preconception pack and then a different trimester packs for pregnancy and all kinds of different things like that. So I focused on that. I got acupuncture, um uh mostly for nervous system benefit because my I could feel like my nervous system was like just a wreck and went for more intentional walks and I I did integrate more exercise. Definitely wasn't what I would prefer in terms of optimal, but it was what I got, it's what I had in me, and so also just trying to enjoy life, like just being making peace with the grief, feeling it, not pushing it away, while also yeah, like I said, sort of like liking, loving the things that we were doing when we could, but not pressuring ourselves to like oh, enjoy every moment, like you know, of course that would be wonderful if that were true. But um, yeah, so and then also something that plays a role in the in my story was that for my pregnancy with Evie, I was receiving care at MDI hospital, and I had heard whispers at the time that they were going to be closing before the announcement came. And then so I had to navigate mentally, I wasn't pregnant yet, but I had to like navigate like what is this gonna look like because I had a very strong feeling that the whispers I was hearing were accurate. And obviously, you know, anyone listening to this now knows MBI has been closed since was it the end of June was their official closure date of 2025. And so trying to determine like where I was gonna get care because the only hospitals that were left in my area was either Bangor, which I I did experience care there with my D ⁇ E, and I saw Dr. Fagan's, which I actually listened to a recent podcast, talking a lot about Dr. Fagan's, which was great because she was amazing. I think it was Ivy that was the most recent podcast of yours that I listened to, and she she saw Dr. Fagans. Um, and I also had a wonderful, wonderful experience with her, and I talked about that in my last episode with you as well. But then the other, the other hospital was Ellsworth, which I did have my traumatic birth experience at. And I don't want to speak harshly about any of the providers that were there at the time of my last, well, I guess technically my first birth. None of those providers lingered, and I do think that they are likely really wonderful people. It was a mismatch. I could go into all of that. I just don't want to speak illly of them, but it it was not a good experience. And so I was very, very hesitant and sort of lost as to like what am I gonna do if I get pregnant again, because I didn't want to return to Ellsworth if I could help it. Spoil alert, I did, and it was actually a very, very, very positive experience, but um, that just played a role in like navigating my care. I really wanted a home birth with my my first V back, but financially we couldn't swing it. And then this time around, even though I technically wasn't high risk other than being advanced maternal age being a risk factor, I still wasn't high risk because my pregnancy and birth with Evie was very specific to her and her syndrome and not anything else. Um, thankfully. Yeah, so that that played a role. And, you know, I also explored uh birth center births, but financially it's not much different. In fact, I think the birth center in Bangor is more expensive than a home birth. And I I interviewed with uh the midwives there back when I was pregnant with my feeb my first feedback uh baby, and I loved them so much, and uh it's so frustrating that the financial aspect played a role, and but I really want to comment on the fact that I do personally believe the financial commitment is worth it. It just didn't work out for my family. And so yeah, that those all played a role, and so it did turn out, long story short, I, you know, I ended up getting pregnant in at the end of April, which was earlier than we had anticipated. Um, and I do practice fertility awareness and we knew we knew we were taking a risk and were okay with that risk. So it wasn't like a, oh gosh, like how did this happen? Um uh I'd been practicing fertility awareness for uh I mean since my oldest was born. And so it was very well known that there was a risk, a small risk, but it was a risk that we were willing to take. And then sure enough, it it did result in the conception of our daughter, um, our our youngest daughter. Uh, her name is Lyra. And um, yeah, so that was scary, but I had a really good feeling with with Evie from conception. Like I had a feeling that something was off. I I think like her like implantation with her, I I believe was late because I didn't test positive until several days later than my other babies that made it to term. And then at the initial scan, her gestational sac was really small. And I remember being really focused on that and trying to get some answers from providers. And it turns out that like most general providers don't, it's not something that's really talked about, but in I guess in IVF um clinics, a small gestational sac is commonly known for being really high risk of either miscarriage or genetic abnormalities. So not to anyone's fault, um, but typical, like just you know, um regular prenatal clinics, women's health clinics um don't usually recognize that. It's not even always measured unless you're at a fertility clinic. So, but I had a a feeling that something was off. And you know, maybe when I am ready to share Evie's birth story, I'll go into that a little bit further. But this time around, I had a really just I felt at peace, which was pleasantly surprising. And so yeah, that that was kind of a long-winded version of like leading up to my pregnancy with her.

Angela: 20:33

Wow. Yeah. So what were your thoughts as far as care after you found out you were pregnant?

Katie: 20:41

Yeah, so I like I, you know, already mentioned, I did end up going with Ellsworth. I was nervous, but I had heard really pretty positive things about the midwifery team there and even the OBs. And I honestly a big factor in initially choosing my care at Ellsworth, which for those that aren't familiar is Main Coast, Northern Light Main Coast, was I didn't have really any earn time available from work and I work full-time, and I wasn't sure that it would be able to work out to go to Bangor if like to start out. I was willing to and yeah, very, very much willing to transfer if I felt like it wasn't a good fit for me at Ellsworth, but I wanted to at least start in Ellsworth because that's what my earn time allowed for me, which is I have a lot of feelings about that, but um, and I was very pleasantly surprised. I was still nervous. It was difficult for me to go back to the hospital. I I had been to Ellsworth for other things. Since my traumatic birth, but not to the women's health clinic. Thankfully, part of what was helpful was the clinic had moved locations within the hospital. So the actual clinic didn't even look the same. And then many, uh, my first birth was in 2019, and I think it was like 2020 or 2021-ish, and it was around COVID where they redid the birth, uh, the labor and delivery unit. So that was also really helpful to have in mind of like nothing looks the same. Uh, surely my blood pressure uh didn't reflect that at my appointments, but I went into that, and we can talk about that further um down the line. But um yeah, so that that was part of it. Like actually a big, a big part of it was was lack of earn time to take time off from work. If I couldn't get in, I I do have or I did and do have Mondays off, but I knew that it wasn't a guarantee that I'd be able to get in anywhere just because I had the day off. So that was a big part of it. But like I said, I I had heard from um, especially my doula, um Sarah Tui, which I'll talk more about her. She was my doula for my first V back, and she was my doula for my pregnancy and birth with, she wasn't able to make it to the birth with Evie, but she was my doula and you know, bereavement doula with um Evie. So I have worked with her since actually the end of my first pregnancy. So sh I trusted her opinion and she had worked with other people that have had positive birth experiences at Ellsworth. So I was really, really like, okay, like I've learned so much about advocacy. I it's a different team, different, it looks different, and I had done a lot of work healing from my birth trauma through therapy and and other things. Um, as a therapist, I love therapy. And so yeah, I I I was in a space where I was willing to try it out and see, and then the earn time piece played a role too. But that that was kind of my decision-making process, given that home birth and birth center weren't weren't really in the cards as much as I would have liked for them to have been.

Angela: 24:16

So yeah. So how were things looking as you started off your appointments?

Katie: 24:22

Yeah, so I it was an interesting model of care. It was different even from the first time like going through Ellsworth. They just had me come in for my dating scan, and that was it. They didn't, there was not really an intake yet, which I thought was interesting. They did do like initial blood work and then also urine screening and and um things like that at that appointment too. But it was just the ultrasound, which went well, although Lyra did have a large yoke sack, which I'm I'm a very like, I I love birth. I will eventually become a doula myself. It's more of a matter of timing and um paying off my student loans before diving into something else. But I I looked that up, uh, not out of fear, I just was curious about like, oh, these measurements. And then that turned out that like that was a little bit jarring to find out that a large yolk sac is also, it can be indicative of baby not getting enough nutrients from the yolk sac, so the yolk sac getting bigger and not, you know, transferring the nutrients to baby, and can also be indicative of um impending miscarriage or genetic abnormalities. Uh, but even even though initially that was jarring, I was able to just sort of like try to tap into my intuition, which I talked about in my my first podcast episode with you. I've been able to become a lot better at just allowing my intuition to help guide me. And it felt I just was reassured, even though that was like I said, it was jarring to find that out. It was like I just had a feeling that it would be okay. Like, I don't know why, it just was how I felt, and I was able to have that be at the forefront of my mind, and so yeah, I I didn't really have many symptoms, which was very similar to Evie's pregnancy, which was it made me a little nervous, but I also just was like, well, maybe this is another girl. So, because um the only baby that we found out um their sex uh before birth was my eldest. And so every pregnancy since we've waited until birth, which, you know, with with my miscarriages, unfortunately, I wasn't we never were able to determine what what sex our baby wasn't. And not that it really matters, but I I wish that we had been able to. We even did some uh testing on the baby that we lost at 18 weeks, and they were unable to determine the the sample didn't I'm like air quotes because I don't really know what that means. That it didn't culture, so they weren't able to get any results from it at all, including baby's sex. But anyway, so um yeah, I thought, okay, well, maybe maybe this baby's just a girl, because I I was tired, I was very tired, but I didn't have any nausea. I didn't feel like eating, but it was different than like real food aversions. It was just like I'm hungry, but nothing sounds good. And so yeah, the pregnancy progressed really like easily, really, aside from the fatigue. I can't remember what the timeline was, but I did start to feel like okay, something is off. Um, not necessarily in terms of like baby, but like I was feeling a little bit woozy, really, really tired, um, and like heavy. Like I remember going for a walk and it felt like I was trudging through mud just to like, and I am like, granted, I haven't been exercising as much as I typically would before two kids, but I mean I didn't go for more than a two-mile walk and like not even halfway through it. I was I turned around and I was so tired. I had to come home and like lay on the couch, and I like fell asleep for hours and hours. And I finally was like, oh, this feels like when I've been anemic in the past. Um, and so I did ask for a blood test, and it turned out my ferritin was like 12 or 13. And so I got five weeks of once per week iron infusions at low doses. I technically was supposed to do like I think the they recommended like two per week or maybe two to three per week for two weeks, and I was like, I don't have any earn time. I can't can't I can't do that. Um, but uh yeah, so I did one one a week for five weeks on my days off, which um did result in me feeling better. But yeah, so that must have been that must have been after my anatomy scan because I I remember it was around my glucose test that I also got the blood draw for for anemia. But yeah, in terms of my care, I I did predominantly see initially uh one midwife, Jarney, and she's she's great. Actually, all all I really I felt like I connected in different ways to all of the midwives there, which was excellent. Because I know that doesn't always happen, just personalities and different providers fit with other people, but all of them fit with me in different ways. Like it was kind of cool to connect with them all in different ways. Jarni is more straightforward and like to the point, but with with like compassion, which I love straight shooters. I wish I could be more like that. So I saw her most of the time just because I was coming in on Mondays. I met with Leanne um a couple of times. Um, oh, and and early on in my pregnancy, I did um, I did have a really like gnarly UTI, which I also had a UTI in my pregnancy with Evie, and it never had had them in my other pregnancies. So I was like, oh man, this is like almost exactly like my other pregnancy. So it was a little bit like uh what's I hope this is different. And it it obviously it was, but but I saw Leanne and I met her at that appointment um for the first time to get checked out for a UTI. And um I was I think I was 13 weeks on the dot and felt Lyra move for the first time during that appointment, which was uh my first V back baby, I did feel him move at 13 weeks too, but my other babies, it was it was much later. So that was pretty cool. And then yeah, I just had my anatomy scan at 20 weeks. I had that up at MFM in Bangor for those that aren't familiar at Eastern Maine. And initially they there was like a couple of things that they couldn't visualize, but nothing that stood out as like scary. Um Lyra was in like this 55th percentile or something on average, and I know those can be off, but with Evie, she was less than third percentile, and no one the tech at the time uh couldn't say anything, and it was right before Christmas, and and so I didn't get the results, or no one spoke to me about the results until afterwards. But knowing what I know, even having a less than third percentile baby, that's IUGR, actually severe IUGR, and I knew that, so I was like, and I knew that that would mean three times a week scans and all kinds of things, and so and like I think her head was less than one percentile, so this was really reassuring, even though there were some missing components from the anatomy scan. I felt really good about it, and even the tech was able to say, like, I think it's okay. And I did go back like a week later, and I think they couldn't visualize her spine, a part of her spine, and then maybe her umbilical cord insertion into the placenta, and those were fine. I did do the genetic screening this time, not because it necessarily would have changed anything, but because for me, I just needed to know, and like the reason why I didn't, or one of the reasons why I didn't do it with Evie, like I said, it wasn't gonna change anything, but also I just didn't feel like there was a high risk. And I they can be wrong. There's false, false positives and false negatives. So I didn't lean too heavily on that. With my first VVAC baby, we didn't do the genetic screening. We did with my oldest, I won't lie, it was mostly to determine sex, which now I'm like, uh I have different feelings. I think I would have made a different choice, at least waited until the anatomy scan. But anyway, um, but we did opt to do that this time around to feel more prepared, and that came back all low risk. Of course, I knew that there could be false negatives, and so it was reassuring, but also I in the back of my mind, it was like, well, is this a false negative? But I didn't allow it to like dictate how I felt on a day-to-day basis. It was just sort of like I'm keeping that in the back of my mind. This is this is one piece of information, and I'm choosing to to focus on that for now. It seems that there's low risk because for those that aren't familiar with the genetic screening, they give you like low risk. It's not like a definitive Angela, I'm sure you know all of this, but we chose to not find out her sex, like I said, until birth. So all of those things, you know, were were pretty straightforward. We didn't choose to share with any of our family until after we got the genetic screening, not because we wouldn't have told them, you know, we would have told them regardless of the outcome, but we were just a lot more guarded. I didn't even tell my friends until afterwards. I think it like technically this is well, yeah, this was my sixth pregnancy, and so I and I'm not even five too, so I don't think I was for some people they they noticed, but I also didn't really lose all of the weight after Evie was born, and so you know, people came back around and they were like, Well, I didn't want to say anything, and I was like, Well, I appreciate you not saying anything, but also understandable why you were wondering if I was pregnant, because I was, and you were correct. Um so yeah, it was nice. I think we well, I know we shared with with our families on the 4th of July. I wore a shirt that said it was a little bit cryptic, but it was just like red, white, and dew, and just like didn't say anything just to see if anyone noticed. Uh, it took a long time. It took a long time for anyone to be like, wait, what? So that was fun. And it felt like we could finally start to like I'm I'm all about celebrating every pregnancy even from the beginning, but we were celebrating privately, and and then it felt like okay, we could celebrate more openly with people. And I told my manager at work that I was pregnant, actually the day that I had to leave work to go get my UTI appointment, um, because I didn't have any earn time available, and I was just like, and she was ecstatic, she's so supportive. But yeah, I had my anatomy scan at 20 weeks, and then something really cool. So I actually worked for MDI Hospital as a behavioral health therapist. Interesting if any of my clients are listening. So I have MDI hospital insurance, and I really wanted to do the fresh test for my glucose screening instead of the glucola. I know, like for me, it wasn't the end of the world. I had done the glucola drink before, and I have I've I'm well versed in taking my blood sugar at home because I think I have some insulin resistance and I was like experimenting with trying to improve progesterone levels, trying to conceive. And so, but I really I'm I have ADHD and I'm really bad at documenting all of my blood sugars, even if I take them. And so I just it was just gonna be easier if I could, if I I just wanted to do the um the fresh test, and at Ellsworth, they the lab wouldn't quote unquote allow for me to do the fresh test there. MBI didn't, except I knew Ellen DeCordy, who was the labor and delivery, who yeah, was a labor and delivery nurse at MBI. She was my postpartum nurse after my first VBAC baby was born. And I messaged her or I called her and was like, hey, like, do you think we could try to use the fresh test? And she did a lot of digging and like between her and I, and she went to like um a conference where uh representatives from the fresh test were at. I don't know which one it was, I think it was a breastfeeding one. And Ellen is now the women's health navigator at NBA hospital. So she's transitioned, transitioned her role through the hospital, but still very much works there. And so she was able to help me get the policy change at NBA. I don't know if it's policy change or just, you know, it took a lot of work, and even the first time I showed up for my glucose screening, they turned me down and they were confused and they were just like, we can't do that. And I'm like, what do you mean? I I did all this back background work with Ellen. I I say I did it, Ellen really did it, but I did, so I did have to come back a different day a couple weeks later. But yeah, I it's really cool that I was able to with Ellen work to get them to accept. I don't know if they'll love that I'm saying this, but they now accept the fresh test, or at least they did for me, and I passed that. And yeah, that so the rest of my pregnancy just just kind of went. And and I did show up to labor and delivery a couple of times at 23 weeks. I did have an anterior placenta, but I was having some pain. I have chronic lower left quadrant pain anyway. It it's strongly suspected that I have endometriosis, but it was really significantly worse on like one day. And now looking back, I think Lyra was just her position, was pushing on that spot that always hurts anyway. But then she wasn't moving as much. And at 23 weeks, that's not atypical, but especially with an anterior placenta. But I told myself at the beginning of the pregnancy that, like, if I had any doubts, I wasn't gonna make myself sit and agonize over, I was just gonna go get it checked out, even if I thought it was probably okay. So I went and that was it was fine. She she was fine, she was moving and her heart rate was perfect, but it became clear to me that being back there was like my blood pressure ended up being like 150 over something, and so they like wanted to rule out preeclampsia. And I was like, that's fine. Like, I don't think I have pre-eclampsia, but I will consent to doing you know the urine test and whatever. And I did not have pre-eclampsia, but it was clear at that time that I needed to, I wanted to do something to help myself feel better, especially given that in my first pregnancy I was really pressured to be induced because of my blood pressure in the clinic. And so I advocated for taking my blood pressure at home and sending in the results through the patient portal to the midwives. I was really bad about consistently reporting it to them through the portal, but I did always report it to them, and my blood pressure was great. I mean, it was like 106 over like 64, and even if in the clinic it was elevated. And so that was really helpful to have that data to show them. Not that I needed to show them, but I knew that it would help feel reassuring for the providers if I had my baseline at home versus when I was anxious in the clinic, just being there. I have white coat syndrome anyway. But they were they were okay with that. They were like, yeah, if you want to do your blood pressures at home, that's fine. Like, and just let us know either at your appointment or send it in the portal. And so, yeah, there was another time pretty close to the end of my pregnancy that I went into labor and delivery because I had really intense abdominal pain in my lower right quadrant. It seemed muscular to me, and I felt like it was probably okay, but the pain got so intense that I like started shaking and like couldn't really talk. And it definitely did it didn't feel anything like contractions, it was very superficial, but um, that resulted in me waking my husband up who would just come off overnight watches uh where he works. Poor guy, he's such a trooper, but and that was fine. That was deemed to be probably muscle spasms, which I did continue to have on and off. I think I was probably like 36 weeks or something like that when that happened. Um, but I was able to find that like leaning over and like letting my belly dangle because they have such a short torso um that I think just my belly was so stretched and probably twisted wrong. It wasn't even round ligament pain, which I do usually get significant round ligament pain, but I was able to find ways to like navigate that pain. Yeah, and so you know, fast forward to I think it was like 36 weeks in like three days or something. I I was having contractions at work. They weren't really, I didn't try to time them. I was I was working with clients, like every hour on the hour, I get a new client, and I'm having contractions for like five hours at work. And I was just like, huh. So on my lunch break, I did actually time a few of them. They weren't they weren't very intense. And I was like, interesting, they are like five minutes apart. Um, and it just sort of fizzled out. I came home and I took a bath, they did go away, but then they came back, but they didn't amount to anything, and I went to sleep and I woke up the next day and they they didn't come back, and that was right before Christmas. I saw Jarni the the following Monday, and I I typically am not one to get checks in pregnancy. I know they're not always super valuable. I mean, for some people they are, and that's fine, but for me, I just don't typically want them. But I I was really curious, and I know the risks and the benefits, you know. For me, I was like, maybe there isn't a whole lot of benefit, but I I really was curious. So Jarnie checked me and it was like three and a half centimeters, yeah, three and a half centimeters dilated already, which looking back, I I had like I you know, I was like, should I have done that? Because I was more on high alert. Like, is this baby gonna come anytime? I knew that I could be three centimeters for like six weeks, and that didn't. And so I don't know if I this is our last. Baby, but if we I if I were to ever get pregnant again, I probably wouldn't opt for that, but I don't regret it just because it it had me a little bit on edge.

Angela: 44:09

But um I did plus the thing, like you know the risks and the benefits, and it's also each pregnancy you can feel differently about each thing that comes up, make different dis decisions, even with like each pregnancy. And there's no right or wrong to this, it's just like knowing the information, knowing you know, like what you're getting into and not like being coerced into anything and like making your own decisions, you know, like there's no right or wrong.

Katie: 44:35

Yeah, I I'm so glad you said that because absolutely. And I know with my first, like I had much more rigid thinking. I had taken a hypnobirthing class, and that was still great. I used hypnobirthing all of my pregnancies, but I did have more of like a rigid thinking of what the quote unquote right thing was to do. Thankfully, I've let that go. But yeah, so it was an informed decision. And it was helpful. So I I guess, yeah. So maybe I would have maybe I would make the decision again if I was having such, you know, prolonged prodromal labor, because it did help in terms of navigating sort of when to get to the hospital to a degree. Again, like labor is so unpredictable anyway, it could have meant nothing. But yeah, so fast forward, like I I just continue to have um intermittent prodromal labor contractions. After that chunk of contractions, which lasted probably on and off for six hours that day before Christmas, uh, I never had it to that extent. But there were a couple times where I was like working with clients through telehealth, and I was like sitting there trying to really focus to try to form sentences and like I felt kind of bad because they had no clue, but it worked out okay. Um, but it was just like, oh my goodness, I can't leave work. Maybe I could have, but I don't, you know, I still had like no earn time available. And then yeah, I think I uh this is where I sort of start to tap into my notes. I don't know if you have any questions that you like want to ask.

Angela: 46:11

I know I sort of like Yeah, like how are you just feeling like mentally overall throughout this pregnancy and coming so fresh off of your previous pregnancy?

Katie: 46:20

Yeah, so I I started to feel much better. I did have hypervigilance all through pregnancy, not to the point where like I couldn't function, but just kind of like background chatter, like of thoughts. And I was I was really kind of impressed with myself that I was able to cope with that effectively. Not because I don't think I can cope with things, but just because I know how pregnancy after loss can be. This was technically my third pregnancy after loss, but this loss was very different, and yeah, so after the anatomy scan, things felt a lot better in terms of anxiety, and like she kicked all the time, but I won't lie, like I did have that hypervigilance in the background, and then I started to feel more scared of labor. I think there was the fear of like, well, I know just because a baby and like I knew this before, but I had lived it like you know, and and to to be clear, Eevee didn't pass during labor, it was before, but it there was the fear of like, well, just because I go into labor doesn't mean the outcome is gonna be a healthy baby. Doesn't mean that it's gonna be a healthy mom or healthy baby. So there was more fear. There was also fear of pressure to fear of pressure to to like go for a repeat cesarean. Thankfully, no one did pressure me into that. There was discussion about scheduling uh an automatic C-section if I didn't go into labor by 41 weeks. I brought up the fact that I didn't, that I personally feel comfortable going to the 42 if everything looks okay because of my history. Like I carry babies longer, and that made them nervous. And I also declined a growth scan because there was I the I I won't say the OB's name. Um he was actually great just because I don't feel the need to. Um, but he he did the VBAC consultation with me at 32 weeks and he recommended that I do a growth scan. I think the other two OBs at Ellsworth, I had heard, I don't know if it's factual, that they quote unquote require a growth scan and a scan to check on your cesarean scar. I felt comfortable forgoing that. I also know it's not super evidence-based. And this OB, he even acknowledged, like, it's not really evidence-based. Thin scars can withstand labor and thick scars can rupture, and it's not, there's not enough evidence to really say if it's an evidence-based practice. But he did recommend the growth scan because of my history of large babies. And I said to him that I was comfortable birthing a large baby because I already had done so. But if there was future evidence to suggest, like if my fundal height was, you know, exceptionally large, that I would consent to a later scan if there was evidence that it might be helpful. That didn't come into play, but it did make me nervous. You know, I hoped that I didn't feel like I needed another scan. I I didn't, and I really didn't like that there was this timetable. I wasn't surprised, but still like coming up against it and it being theoretical are two different things for me anyway. But I didn't feel pressured, like nobody, nobody was like, oh, you must or you can't continue to be a client or patient here. And so yeah, I did feel an increase in anxiety the closer I got to the end of my pregnancy, but it was still tolerable. I processed it with my with my therapist, and and you know, we talked about how well why wouldn't I feel some level of anxiety, like, and just sort of like allowed it to be what it was. I know, like, yes, ideally, birthing without fear would be excellent, but with my history, that wasn't going to happen for me, and that was okay. I I made space for the anxiety, but also intentionally didn't make it my focus.

Angela: 50:56

So, how were those final like weeks and then days leading up to when your labor started looking like for you?

Katie: 51:02

Yeah, so that's when I started to have the like lower abdominal pain. So I was really uncomfortable, more so than my other pregnancies. Like, I typically well, I do I do love being pregnant, and like I was over it. Like I my two older kids are so energetic, and I solo parent like a third of the time, maybe even closer to like half the time. My husband does overnights every other week where I am the only parent around. Granted, my husband helps with things like in the morning and stuff before he goes to sleep, but you know, it was it was me and chasing them around, and pickups were tricky, so it it got really uncomfortable. And I like I said, I have a really short torso, so like even sitting down. I mean, I know anyone, regardless of your torso length, that sitting down is tricky, but this was like, oh gosh. And then, gosh, I want to say it was like not, it wasn't even a whole week before. It was the Tuesday, Tuesday before Lyra was born. I went for a walk at lunch. I go for walks on my lunch break all the time. It was the same route, and I encountered a fox, um, which is great, like whatever. But it ended up chasing me. And I ended up having to call a game warden. I don't think it was rabid, but they think it was just like a young fox. I have like faux fur on my winter jacket, and they think that like it just got distracted by me and started chasing me, but I ran from this fox wearing like heavy-duty muck boots, and I I can laugh about it now, but I was genuinely scared. I was like, I don't know if this fox has rabies or what, like, I don't want to mess with it, and it got really close and started chasing me. And I I um ended up having like really severe pelvic pain after that. Like, I'm fairly certain it was SPD, but like I it was intense and like I don't know, like an hour after getting back to my office and sitting down, all of a sudden I couldn't walk very well. Like the front of my pubic bone was so painful. And so that was not fun. I went, I did have chiropractic care not as long as I wanted to because of my schedule, because I had to go after work about 30 minutes away from my work with both of my kids in tow most of the time. But I I went to see Dr. Megan at Life Source Family Chiropractic. She's Webster certified and she's wonderful. I've seen her for years now. And I told her, and she did adjust mean, she was like, I don't, I don't, she was like, You might have SPD, but also your baby is so much lower than last week. And I was like, Oh, okay, like maybe that's a good thing. So yeah, it it that continued on and off for the rest of that week, and then Friday, so just a few days later, I had to physically chase after my older son who didn't want to be picked up from his after school care. And I don't normally have to do that, but I picked him up and he's he's not that big. I mean, he's not even 40 pounds for being six, that's pretty small. But after that, like I the next day I had to have my mother-in-law take my kids because I couldn't walk, or maybe it was two days later. So I remember like walking around Walmart because I had to get something, and I was like holding on to the cart and I was just like shuffling because I was in so much pain. And thankfully, the next day, my husband was home. He was he was off his uh day shift chunk. And oh, I got a I did I got a massage that Sunday. I didn't expect that to really help with SPD, but just for relaxation purposes, and I was really emotional, just given how like I was feeling like I couldn't care for my kids, and that really to feel so limited in that way. I'm very much like I'm gonna do everything even if I have to be uncomfortable. But it was like I couldn't, and that is really frustrating. I mean, I think it's frustrating for anyone, but particularly being of the mindset of like I'm gonna push past discomfort, and that I couldn't even do that, and I knew not to, so I was like, okay, well, my mother-in-law took the kids that day too, and I went and got a massage, and then the next day my husband was off work, and I had a midwife appointment. So at this point, I was 39 weeks and six days this Monday, and had an acupuncture appointment with my doula, Sarah Tui. I had been having like a lot of like sacral pain, and my babies tend to prefer to be kind of posterior with my V-back baby. He I'm fairly certain he was posterior until he emerged. I think he turned, what do they call it, like a long arc rotation and and came out with his head anteriorly when he was born, but they tend my babies, I I have like a weird sacrum, so I I think it's just my normal. And so I I think she was kind of lex left occiput transverse for that day, and I was like, oh man, like my sacrum is really like there's a lot of like pressure and some achiness there, and I was like, I didn't really think a whole lot of it, other than like I hope she turns because I had pretty intense back labor with my first V-back baby, and I really hoped that didn't happen again. And so I went and saw Sarah for acupuncture, and I opted to lay down. She was gonna do some use some points that can help sort of tip you over into labor if you're experiencing prodromal labor. And she was like, Well, you can sit up and have babies head, you know, create some pressure on your cervix, or you can lay down. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna lay down. This pressure is kind of a lot. And I I didn't, I mean, I had a like a uh contraction or two maybe throughout the whole one hour period. And on the way home, so this was about like one, my appointment got over at 1.30. I started to have more like pressure in my sacrum, and there were like three, so I don't live very far from her office, and there were three construction sites. I mean, I think I live like eight minutes away. There were three different construction sites where they were redoing the telephone poles. I remember at the first one, I was like, I had like it was a very mild contraction, and I was like, I wonder if today will be the day, because this sensation is interesting. Not the contraction itself, uh, like I said, that was pretty mild, but like just the other feelings that I was having. I was like, I don't know, this is this is interesting. So I got home and and like, you know, I had very not I didn't even time them, but they weren't they were very, very mild, like they felt more like Braxton Hicks, really, while I was making lunch with my husband, and we ate, and probably around like three, maybe three thirty, I went to take a bath, not because I was super uncomfortable, but because I was like, that just sounds like it feels good, and like my kids are gonna get home not too long from now, and I just want to relax and I was feeling tired. And I had a couple contractions in the bath, but again, like not they were so mild that I just didn't really I was like, surely this is just more prodromal stuff. My husband left to go get the kids and he came home around like five, and I had been having I did like I was sort of laying here in bed and like I was curious if there was any sort of like consistency, they were still very much ignorable. I was just you know doing the absent-minded scrolling on my phone. So I timed them and they were like five to six minutes apart. They didn't require any movement or really any concentration, but I was like, huh, okay. And so my kids came home, we I just kind of hung out with them. Uh, we were watching some Pixar movies, and my husband was getting dinner ready, and I was just kind of up and down. I was doing some like I wasn't really following the mild circuit, but like I knew like Lyra was in like a not a weird position, but I just had hoped for a better position if this was gonna be real labor. Um, so I was like doing some stretches and like like doing the first couple like uh positions or movements from the mile circuit. And like I remember we were watching uh Luca, the Pixar movie, and like I was like starting to feel like a little bit more pressure. I was like doing some like asymmetrical lunges because trying to get her in a better position. And there's a part in Luca where they're talking they say like Silencio Bruno or something like that, and for some reason I just think that's really funny, and my kids were laughing, and so I kept saying it and like making them laugh as I was like doing these like they like my kids thought it was hilarious that I was just doing these like weird positions, and I don't know, it's probably like 6:30 by the time we were eating, which is a little later than usual, but at that point I was like having to breathe through contractions and stopping every couple of bites and like breathing. And I remember looking at my husband and like making eye contact, and he was just like, Are you okay? I was like, Yeah, I'm okay. And just I was like, I don't know, maybe this isn't real labor. And he was just like, Well, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know. And and what he was referring to was like, should we call his mom who was going to take our kids if it was real labor? And I didn't want to make that decision, and I was like, well, if it's not real labor, then like it'll be a pain in the butt. And he's like, No, we'll just have a night without our kids and they'll be fine. And I was like, okay, well, sure, I guess. And so my mother-in-law ended up showing up because the contractions continued to be like two to three minutes apart for a while, but they were still like I had to breathe through them, but they were like not that intense, they just required my attention, and I was like, well, yeah, so we'll we'll call her. And then so she got to her house around 7:30, and like I had like several contractions while she was at our house and said goodbye to the kids, and she probably left closer to like 7:45 or something like that. And by the time I laid down in bed after the kids left, like my contractions by eight o'clock, they were just gone. And I was like, what the heck? Like, I was like, I was hoping I wasn't wrong, but and I had been texting my doula and she was like, Oh, well, maybe, maybe I was wrong, maybe this is not labor. And I was like, Well, it looks like I was wrong too. Um, and I was like, Well, I guess I'll go take another bath because I really love baths, and I was like, I don't know when I'll be able to take a bath again. And I had like one, maybe, maybe one contraction in the bath, and like I was just relaxing and like hanging my belly and got out of the tub, and I don't know, immediately after I got dressed, I started shaking, and I was like, weird. I was like, I hope I'm not going into transition, and then I went pee and had a bloody show and started shaking almost uncontrollably, and my contractions came back with like a vengeance, still, still like manageable, like, but like I was like, okay, like, and I know that that can happen, like, but I just it wasn't until hindsight that I was like, ooh, yeah. So I called labor and delivery because I had never had bloody show. And well, I can't say I never had bloody show. I didn't start any sort of bleeding in labor until I hit like eight centimeters, like with my V back baby. And at that point, I had I don't know if it was like true bloody show, with my V-BAC baby, I had a cervical laceration that went undetected. It didn't, it didn't cause significant bleeding like it typically would, no hemorrhage or anything. And so that made me a little nervous just because of that history. And like I, it wasn't like I wasn't bleeding like I had a period, but it wasn't like just a little spotting. So I was like, uh, I'll call labor and delivery. And they were like, well, you can come if you want. You know, they asked how long I had been having contractions and you know, all that stuff. And then I was like, oh, I should mention I'm a V back mom. And they were like, Oh, yeah, you should come in, because they don't they feel uncomfortable if you labor at home too long, in quotations. Um, which I uh yeah, anyway, I get there there is a higher risk of rupture the further you go into labor. But I was like, okay, well, we'll we're just gonna like slowly get ready and make our way over and warm up the car. And I hung up the phone. I had a contraction with her on the phone and I just sort of breathed through it. And then uh I think I got off the phone and had like two more contractions, and the second one I had to like vocalize through. And I called her back and she was like, Oh, is everything okay? I was like, Yeah, we're just gonna come now. I'm vocalizing and shaking a lot, so we're gonna come now. And she's like, Okay, because the the midwife at the time she thought was an hour and a half away. And with V back moms, they have to call everyone in to be prepared in the EOR just in case of a uterine rupture. But we left and we got there probably right before 10, yeah, right before 10. My doula was even like, oh yeah, if you want me to attend your birth, I should probably leave now. And I was like, okay, I I can I can get down on that. So we got there just before 10. It was interesting. There was, I think there was someone having a mental health crisis in the emergency department. And because of the time of day, that's where I had to go. And I being well, I was in labor. Spoiler alert, it was real labor. I don't think anyone would have thought differently at this point in my story, anyway. Way, but um, but it was a little intimidating. Um, I waited outside while my husband went to go park the car because I was like, uh, there were like two big men that were sort of like standing there talking to this individual, and it was a little intimidating. But I went inside once my husband got to me, like the parking lot's not very big, so it didn't take him very long, but registration ended up taking longer because of it, and not the most ideal place to be laboring, which is fine. Like, it's fine.

Angela: 1:06:31

I understand mental health, and so I wasn't bothered, it just didn't be around something that like makes you fearful while you're in natural spontaneous labor can stall your labor and best. Yeah, yeah.

Katie: 1:06:45

Thankfully, it didn't, or at least not in a noticeable way. Um, I still was getting contractions, and someone from labor and delivery came down and was like, Do you want a wheelchair? And I was like, Nah, like still laughing and joking in between contractions. But we went up to labor and delivery, and like she initially put me in a room that didn't have a tub, and I really wanted to use the tub because my first labor, my first spontaneous labor with my V back baby was spent mostly in the tub at the hospital. And that was really helpful to me. And so I advocated to change rooms, which she initially was like, uh, I don't think we can allow VBAC moms to labor in the tub. And I was like, that's not what I've been told. Like, I was trying to be kind, but I was a little more blunt because of being where I was in labor. And she she came back and she was like, actually, we don't have a policy, so I'm more than happy to change rooms. And I was like, Okay, thank you. And so we got into the room and like I did not change into the gown. I don't, I don't like labor and delivery gowns. Oh, I don't like hospital gowns. And so I just changed into like different clothes, and um, I did consent to a check, and I a medula arrived like I don't know, five minutes after we got to this other room. And she later told me that she didn't think that maybe she was like, Oh, maybe you maybe I thought maybe you weren't as far along in labor as I initially thought, because you were laughing and joking and like like maybe, yeah, maybe I was wrong. Maybe maybe you weren't about to birth this baby. Um, because she thought for sure that she was gonna see us on the side of the road, like dropped everything and just ran to the hospital because you're like, this is happening right now. Yeah, yeah. She she thought that I for sure was gonna have a baby on the side of the road, but um I didn't. I made it to the to the hospital and I got checked at like 10. Gosh, I think it was 10.08, is what my chart said, and I was eight centimeters dilated with a bulging bag, and I al I started crying a little bit because I thought maybe I'd be like five centimeters. Like I thought, like, surely this didn't progress that quickly. And then was it like happy tears crying? Yeah, yeah, happy tears. I really didn't think I got to the hospital with my first feedback baby at like six centimeters, and with my first child, uh, I was failure to progress around five or six centimeters. So my first feedback baby getting there at the spot where they called a cesarean was like crazy to me. I was like, no way. Um, and I I could have labored at home longer, but I really wanted to use the tub. And so to get to the hospital this time, eight centimeters was like, I just didn't it my brain just didn't compute. And so I cried very briefly, but it was like, okay, so I am really in labor. Like, this is really happening. There's no turning back now. Essentially, like the rest of that time was spent, like the nurse, I had two nurses. One was doing like admission questions, which I do wonder, like, if I was getting care, and this isn't like a poo-poo, it was more like a curiosity thing. Like, if I was getting care through this hospital the whole time, and some of these questions are repeat questions, why are they asking me these questions? Again, it was fine.

Angela: 1:10:05

Like, are your spontaneous labor? Whereas like you're going through altered brainwave states, and you're like, brainwaves are actually like slowing down. And to answer these questions that require your brainwaves to be like faster and like normal, like we're chit-chatting right now. Is yeah, like I I've heard them ask, like, can you afford your electric bill? None of us can afford our electric bills, right?

Katie: 1:10:26

You're asking me. Oh, she was she was very cursed. She was like, I'm really sorry. And I was like, okay. Let's call us though. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, it was fine. Like, I was tolerating the contractions well enough that like I could answer some of the questions, and she'd ask a question and then I'd start to have a contraction. And she was so patient. Like, she she was fine.

Angela: 1:10:49

Um, and the other one little trick too for anyone that might be listening is like you can just have like your husband, like, point your husband, he's gonna answer the rest of these questions for me.

Katie: 1:10:57

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my husband helped um answer and like my doula even helped answer some of the questions. And and oh, I to kind of go back, like at my appointment that I had earlier that day, I almost opted for a membrane sweep because I was getting anxious about coming up against the 41 week. My next appointment was at 41 weeks or 40 weeks in six days. So I was like, uh, I didn't. So all of this happened spontaneously, which I was really, really hoping for. I really hoped for like no interventions. I mean, I know technically showing up at the hospital is considered an intervention, but where I was going to the hospital anyway. Them talking to you, asking all those questions could be asked an intervention. Yeah, and so I like well, whatever. Right. Um, but they the other nurse, she was like, oh, so with V back moms, we we we policy she was very careful in choosing her work. She was like, policy requires two IVs, and I was like, two. I could have, I was just really shocked to hear that. And she was like, she was amazing. Um, she was like, technically, all of these things are recommendations, and you don't have to consent to any of them if you don't want to. And with her saying that, I was like, she's like my best friend now. Like I knew that, I knew that, but her explicitly saying that, like, my guard came down a lot. And I was like, I asked her why there was two, and she's like, Well, one's a bigger I can't remember a smaller gauge for something. And I was like, Can I just have the bigger one? Like and she was like, Yeah, I was like, Okay, I'll I I'll do one. I am a hard stick, usually, although she got it in so easily, and I couldn't even feel it, which was great. Thankfully, the contractions took away from that sensation. But um, the midwife came. Apparently, she she was not at home, she was just sleeping in the call room. So, and the nurse that had said that she was an hour and a half away. I think she was a travel nurse, so she wasn't as well versed with what that midwife usually does. And so the midwife came in at some point and was like, So, how long you've been having contractions for? And I I don't know if I told her accurate information or not. I don't even know if I really looked in her eyes very much because I was just like bent over the end of the bed, like having contractions. And like, I don't know, she had said, like, you know, like how do you feel about getting your blood drawn? I know it's not ideal, but we really like to get baseline lab values. And because of my history of anemia in that pregnancy, I I consented to it anyway. And the woman who came from the lab did a really great job. Like, I didn't feel it at all. And yeah, I don't know how much time came in between. I think shortly after the labs were drawn, that's when like the midwife who was on call, it was Jarnie. She, I just remember her saying, I had put those like mesh underwear on. I love them so much that if I have leftovers at home, I'll just wear them if I'm on my period and at home because they're so much more comfortable than underwear, I think. So I put those on and she just I just remember her being like, How do you feel about taking these off? Because at that point I was like, I had gotten on the bed because I was getting tired of standing and with my like leaning over the top of the bed, it was like, you know, um inclined. And she was like, How do you feel about taking this off? And in my head, I was like, I don't think I need to do that. But I was like, sure, like why not? And she like, I think she even like cut them off me. She she asked, everyone was so great about like getting consent and like, are you sure that's okay? And I was like, Yeah, sure. And then like, I don't know, my my chart said like by 11 I had spontaneous um pushing contractions. Um, and I remember shortly before that, I was like, oh, I even named it. I was like, the contractions, I'm feeling them at my fundus now, and like I was like, oh boy, and I started to feel a little intimidated by that. Um, because I didn't like pushing with my first feedback baby, it took two and a half hours to push his giant head out, and I had a lot of back labor when I was pushing, and it was just not not fun. Felt very relieving when he was born, but in my head, I was like, oh gosh, I have like two and a half hours left to go. And Jarnie, I don't think she she was like, Oh, how long did you push with your son? And I was like, two and a half hours, and she was like, Oh, okay, like I think I think what she was saying was like she didn't think much time was left. And I think that I had like one like kind of pushy contraction, and I was like, Well, are you guys gonna check me? And she was like, Well, do you feel like you need to be checked? I was like, Well, they did with my last VBAC baby. I said last just to simplify. Um, and um like she was like, Well, I can check you if you want, and I was like, Yeah, let's do that. And she was like, Well, I don't feel any cervix and baby is really low. And I was like, Well, what station? And I like she was like, Well, baby's at like a zero, and I was like, Okay, so in my head, I was like, Well, that's it could be no time left, it could be two and a half hours, I don't know. And I was like, This is the point where I really think I want an epidural, and she was like, We don't have time for that, so we're gonna move on now, and that was actually like the perfect thing to say because I didn't really know what she meant by that, other than like maybe there really is no time, but the way she said it was playful but straightforward. And like I said, I like people who are straight shooters, and she's just like, we're gonna move on, and then that was it, and I had a big contraction that was very much a spontaneous push. Um, and I remember her asking, like, you know, is there is there, you know, did you push with that? And I was like, no, and I don't know, we can't, I can't really remember the conversation. And the next one, I it was a spontaneous push and her head came out. It was like these involuntary contraction pushing contractions started at 11, her head was out, and the what my water broke at 11.02, and at 11.03, she was completely born. And and her head and her body came out in the same contraction. I did give like a little bit more of a push at the end because I the the natural urge to push sort of petered out at the end there. And then I just I was on my hands and knees, and I just remember her being passed up through my legs, and I just was like, like, holy cow, like I think I even said some swear words, and like her like wet slippery body was on the bed in front of me, and I just like I remember my doula being like, Do you need a minute? And I don't think I answered, but I think it became clear that I needed a minute. Like, I wasn't, I was like shocked, but not in a bad way. Like, I was just like, What in the heck? Because in my head, I really thought I had like at least an hour of pushing, if not longer, left. And Darnie said something about like, you know, see if it's a boy or girl. And I I, you know, moved her cord and I was like, oh, it's a girl. I told you to my husband, who he did help with like some hip squeezes and definitely putting some like cold cloths. I was really hot this labor, like that didn't really happen with my other labors. And I had the labor shakes so intensely this time, and I didn't have them until afterwards, my other labors, um, except for my first induction. And so I was like, I knew what they were, and I had seen on Instagram a labor and delivery nurse talking about like, you know, if you get if you get the labor shakes, a trick could be to stick your tongue out. And so I did that without telling anyone. Like, I don't know if anyone noticed, or maybe they did and just didn't care to like ask me because I was laboring, but I remember sticking my tongue out, and it did work, but I was like, this is too much effort to stick my tongue out, so I'm just gonna leave it. Um, but yeah, so she was born at 11:03, and I showed up there, I don't know, probably right around I got to the labor and delivery unit probably right around 10 o'clock.

Angela: 1:19:46

Oh my goodness. So she's just like, so you're on your hands and knees on the bed, I'm assuming facing like the head of the bed, and she's on the bed right in front of you, and you're just kind of looking down at her.

Katie: 1:19:55

Yeah, just like whirlwind, like whoa. And I remember Jarnie mentioned she like said like shoulder, and I remember being like in my head, I'd never verbalize it, like wondering, like, oh, does that mean shoulder dystocia or shoulder is out? And I think her shoulders were just born. But there, thankfully, there once I got to the pushing, or I think once I got there, like I didn't have well, there there was a little fear once they started doing the continuous fetal um monitoring, just because I couldn't hear her heartbeat, but I could see the heart rate. It was okay, but I remember being a little nervous then, and I just tend to bleed more in labor, I think. So, you know, I asked Jarnie at one point, like, is that bleeding normal? And she was like, Yeah, I'm not worried. And so, like, after that point, and I don't even know, I don't even know how long Jarnie was in the room, it was not very long, but yeah, so I I the nurses helped me flip over and put her on my chest, and I just remember just being like, holy F word, like repeatedly, like what happened? Like, how did that happen so quickly? And I declined Pitocin. I didn't, I didn't need it. Excuse me. Um, I didn't there was no indication for needing it at that point, so I declined. I did accept it in my first feedback because I was bleeding a little bit more, I think probably due to my cervical laceration. And um, they were okay with that. I mean, thankfully, I they were super supportive, so I wasn't surprised. And the only thing that I was like sort of annoyed with, not necessarily at anyone, um, was that I asked if we could wait to cut her cord until the placenta was born. And Jarnie said she was very careful with her words. She she was like, you know, hospital administration doesn't like that because of infection risk. And then I internally rolled my eyes, uh, not at her, but like hospital policy. Um, I know she was just doing her job and you know, whatever. And but that was a fight I didn't need to fight in that moment. I was just like, okay, whatever. Um, my husband did not, well, he they were asking him if he wanted to cut the cord, and we had talked about this before. He cut all the other cords, and I was like, well, if he doesn't want to, I will. And he was like, You cut the cord. He's squeamish and he doesn't like that sort of thing, but he does it because he thinks it means something to me, which to a degree he's not incorrect, but I don't want him to be uncomfortable either. Um, so I cut her cord, which was really cool, and then I also asked if I could like paw through her placenta afterwards, which I didn't, I waited to do that, but they were like, yeah, like they were like, we've never had a mom ask to do that. And so, yeah, I mean, the placenta came out like I don't know, five minutes later, if that, with no problem. And so I had the golden two hours, and my doula stayed and hung out because she was gonna take my placenta home with her. Um, I did paw through it and took some pictures, and there's some pictures of me with like gloves on and my like bra with my baby. Actually, no, my husband had the baby at that point, just digging through the placenta. And um yeah, I don't think I got any sleep that night. I was definitely riding the berth high. The only thing that was different, and not necessarily in a bad way, was I didn't really get to access that labor land state. Maybe during those like last pushes and like uh or those pushes during the last few minutes, but and I'm okay with it. Like I did get to that state and it was very blissful and peaceful um with my first feedback baby. And this was like just like too quick, I think, and also answering questions, which was fine, but it was very, very empowering. Like I didn't want a birth on my back with my first V back baby, um, or if I could help it, if it but it ended up being what felt good, like and so this time around, I was excited that I wasn't on my back, and no one I mean, I even asked for that last check, they weren't gonna check me. And so, like, it felt very autonomous and just super empowering that they were so supportive and like it was better than I could have imagined, and she was a surprise girl, which like I had a feeling she was, but my husband was like ecstatic, and yeah, it was it was amazing and so so fast.

Angela: 1:24:42

Oh my goodness, how special, Katie. That's amazing. Yeah, wow. So how yeah, how has your postpartum been going? Like, how was your early postpartum? And then yeah, these only telling three weeks, so yeah.

Katie: 1:24:57

I mean, so far things have been amazing. I didn't get really any sleep in the hospital, which I am a light sleeper anyway, and so like I know that's one of the downsides of birthing in a hospital, and I was willing to accept that. But yeah, so initially she so she has a tongue and lip tie. My other two kids, um, my other two living children also had tongue and lip ties. Um, so I you know told them to look out for that, and sure enough, she has them. There was a point in which like they were a little, I don't want to say concerned, although maybe they were concerned, um, because my uterus felt a little boggy at one in one spot, and they were like, you know, they were able to get you know, through the lovely fundal massages, get my uterus to clamp down and it wasn't boggy anymore. But the reason I bring that up is because I think the day, no, the day after we got home, so we were there for a day, well, 24 hours plus discharge 1 p.m. the next day because of just the time in which she was born, 11 p.m 11.03 p.m. And so the day after we got home, I passed a please piece of placenta. And I called, I hadn't been having any alarming bleeding. I I called labor and delivery, and I I spoke to the other midwife that I didn't mention, Kaya Day, she was also great, and she was like, Are you sure it wasn't a clot? And I was like, Yeah, I mean there's clots with it, but I mean it was very small, it was like the size of my thumbnail, and she she was so great because she seems very like non-alarmist. Like, you know, you know, she asked questions like, you know, are you experiencing any like foul odor or like any heavy bleeding following passing it? And I said, No, and she was like, Well, I think, you know, if unless you want to come in and be seen, you know, if you feel okay with just sort of like observing, I think that seems like a reasonable approach. And I was like, Yeah, that seems reasonable. It just seemed very, very strange, especially since I didn't have I mean, I didn't have any identifiable risk factors. Obviously, there's always risk to some extent in anything birth related or life in general. So that was more of like a weird thing. Like, did your placenta come out on its own or was it like yeah, it did. It did. They didn't I I remember giving a little push and Johnny like gave gentle cord or just sort of guided the placenta out. She didn't even have like real cord traction and it came out, yeah, naturally. So it was kind of unusual. But I, you know, I took a picture and I later showed Kaida and she's like, yeah, that definitely seems like placental tissue. Um and it seemed intact when when they were looking at it at the hospital. So I'm not really sure what that was about, but I'm sure that's probably linked to my uterus seeming boggy at first. And I did have pretty intense after pains, but they disappeared after that even. Of placenta passed. And another weird thing, it was like as soon as we got home the day of discharge, I took a shower and I noticed in the shower some sensations that led me to looking in the mirror. And I definitely had initially like a uterine prolapse. And I called and I spoke with Suzanne Norgang, who's for people who are listening, she doesn't do clinic hours there, but she is on call intermittently. I think twice a month, she said, or something like that. And she was the nurse who was, or the nurse midwife who was there who discharged me, and I called and spoke to her, and she was so reassuring and was just like, you know, take it easy and be as horizontal as you can be for the next, you know, week or two at minimum. Um, and thankfully I haven't had any issues with it since, but that was that piqued my anxiety very, very much so. Had a bit of a spiral, a bit of a cry, and then thankfully, since it's been not problematic. I do go to pelvic floor physical therapy with Dr. Megan Staples in Bangor, and I plan on seeing her anyway. So that hasn't been problematic, but yeah, other than that, like things have been excellent. Like, because Lyra was born so quickly, she had her face was black and blue, and she still has some like broken blood vessels in her eyes, but so she had a very, very low level of jaundice initially, but no one was ever concerned. And she's already she was born seven pounds six or no, seven pounds 14 ounces and 20 inches long, and she's already 10 over 10 and a half pounds um as of yesterday. So gaining weight despite the tongue and lip ties. And right now I'm I've been pumping once a day. That's what I did after my first feedback baby because of the tongue and lip ties with my oldest son. I suspected it, but um, we weren't able to get in with my trusted PCP until well after I want to say he was like six weeks or something like that. And by then, people had already, the the people I saw in the interim had already like sort of dismissed my concerns about tongue and lip ties, even though my son could not even flange his upper lip at all. It was like tucked in. He couldn't drink, it took him like an hour to drink an ounce and a half from a bottle because he couldn't even form a seal on a bottle. So my milk supply was gone by the time we got his tongue and lip ties revised. I worked really hard to pump, um, and I got a little bit of a supply back, but it never um got to a place where I could feed him. He was almost failure to thrive. And so I used donor milk. And so now, um, even though I don't think we'll have problems with nursing, I'm pumping and I have come in contact with uh a former labor and delivery nurse from NDI who I will give donor milk to, which feels really fulfilling. After Evie was born, I pumped for two weeks and donated her newborn milk to a family in need. And I think they passed on what was left to another family. I actually think the person I donated milk to after Evie was born was also on your podcast, which was really cool. And she she passed on the milk to another family because she didn't need it anymore. So that milk fed at least two babies, and then this milk will feed my baby and at least one other baby. So that feels really cool. I really love donating milk after my experience with my oldest and needing donor milk.

Angela: 1:31:37

So it's kind of where I'm at. Well, it's really such a special thing to be able to donate if you can.

Katie: 1:31:43

Yeah, yeah. I it's really, really fulfilling, and I knew going into Evie's birth that I was going to donate. I knew I wasn't gonna pump for a long time, but uh two weeks felt like the perfect amount of time, and it it just feels really cool. And I know with my first V back baby George, I fed, I think I pumped and donated, I want to say it was like over seven gallons of milk, which was really cool. I get to feed one of my best friends babies, partially. She was also pumping what she could and um, I think supplementing with formula maybe, but so I have I've got to feed or help feed many babies, which is so cool. But yeah, so far things are going really great. I'm feeling a little bit of grief that this is our last baby, but it is by choice. Um so there's grief in closing that chapter, um, and then also feeling grief alongside like these major milestones, like hitting Evie's birth date, you know, the one-year anniversary since then, and and other things, but it has been manageable, like I'm making sure to take time to make time for it. And, you know, I have lots of pictures of her, and so I will revisit those pictures often and and holding space for that while also feeling this like immense joy of this like little baby girl that you know is so special, as are all my other children and even the ones that aren't here earthside. So yeah, lots of feelings. I I am a deeply feeling person anyway, so but I'm trying to like document them, like not only in the form of this podcast, but like writing it down. And I don't know, my husband's like, You should you should write a book someday. And I was like, maybe I will. I don't know, I don't know what I'll do with it. I don't know if I'd opt to publish it or not, but I do have quite the variety of pregnancy and birth stories, and I I do eventually, you know, not only like I said, I want to be a doula, but I would love to become a childbirth educator. I think that might come first since it's a little more predictable than being a birth doula, as you know. Um and I'm gonna continue to pursue perinatal mental health. I I was gonna take my exam before she was born, uh, Lyra, but I was like, that's too much. That's too much to try to study for an exam like that while being pregnant. And so I don't know when I'll try to do that, probably later this year. And yeah, I'll go from there.

Angela: 1:34:15

Yeah, that's amazing. As a final question, I ask this at the end of every episode. I know you answered this last time you're on, but at this point in your journey, if you were to give advice to someone who's expecting or even new parents, what's one of the biggest things that you'd want to share? I know you've already given so much like good bits of advice, but yeah, if there's like a final thought or like a few thoughts, like what would that be?

Katie: 1:34:42

Yeah, I I was thinking of this um after connecting with you about this. And and also, I mean, I think about it all, I think often is like, especially in my work with perinatal mental health clients, is like that intuition piece, like really trying, and I I'm fairly certain I said this at my last my last episode with you is trying to tap into intuition and like you know, even if there's no seemingly identifiable reason why you're feeling that way, I think like our intuition is really helpful in making decisions and you know it's okay if you can't fully suss out is it intuition or is it anxiety? Oftentimes anxiety can come alongside intuition, um, but trying to practice tapping into your intuition before before baby comes or even you know before pregnancy, but it's a practice, it's not something that you perfect. But if if something in your gut is telling you or you're even finding yourself questioning anything in pregnancy or postpartum or birth, stop and ask those questions. Try to tap into why you're why you're having that question or that thought. And even if you don't find out the exact answer, just allowing it to help guide you. Because I think, you know, well, I know that we are wise women, and especially in pregnancy, labor, and birth and postpartum. Uh, we don't always know the why, but help, help let your intuition guide you as best as you can and when you can and ask questions and trust yourself. Yeah.

Angela: 1:36:16

Yeah, those are all really big ones for sure.

Katie: 1:36:20

Yeah.

Angela: 1:36:22

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Katie, for coming back on and joining me on the podcast. Ah, yeah, thank you. Before you go, I just want to remind you, I have a ton of resources for pregnancy and birth. If you're pregnant, whether you're a first-time mom or if this is your fifth baby, I want you to check out the show notes because I have some free trainings and free downloads that you can sign up for, as well as a link to access MyLibroflow, a comprehensive, self-paced online childbirth education course. I created this course specifically for moms who don't want to be told what to do, regardless of where you're birthing or who your birthing is. And I'd honestly love to teach you everything that I know so that you can prepare for an autonomous birth experience and prepare to step into your role as the leader of your birth journey. So, with those show notes, check out all of those links, and if you ever have any questions, feel free to DM me at my main birth over on Instagram.