143. MyMaine Birth: How We Birth Matters - Part Three - The Power and Transformation in Receiving the Light and Holding the Charge, Cam’s Story

Jan 2

Alannah: 0:00

It was it it it was a lot to I mean it still is it's a lot to carry that and to not let it I mean for me I don't even know if I ever told you maybe I mean I I used to date like I was fine I was fine like I was momming that boy so hard it was fine um and and like my connection with him was fine and but it was our connection that was really put to the test I I I would day literally daydream like driving I would daydream about packing up our baby and just him and I leaving and just going anywhere because I didn't want to cry because like for me it just felt like no one was ever gonna understand what all of that felt like and so to feel so alone and also disconnected from from my husband who's like he's been my best friend for 15 years you know and so so for that relationship to feel in jeopardy in a way because of that because you know like like everything could have been different. He could have said, hell no, I'm not leaving this room. He could have done all of these things different. And so like how dare he not do that, you know, and it and so I literally used to dream about like just me and my baby just leaving because I didn't want to be around. I didn't want to be around all of these people who could who could never comprehend what I went through and you know what it took to get him here and and no one was ever gonna separate us again. That was for for damn sure, you know, and um yeah, I mean I was not as I had said before, I was not in a good place at all. And so it took a lot to kind of be able to, I don't know, maybe forgive and move through those feelings that I had toward him because we were both first-time parents. He was a first-time dad, you know, like he had never had to navigate a situation like that, and he was I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, also traumatized by that, you know, like his wife is suddenly bleeding way too much, and something is happening in the next room that he doesn't know about, like all of that, and it's like how how I you know, you you only when you know better, you do better. I don't know, and we didn't know, and so it just takes a lot to kind of remember that we were both treated in a way that was not okay, and it wasn't like while yes, in a perfect world, him fighting back would have been great. That's a lot to expect in that in that situation, and you know, for having never done like I know now if we were to be in a hospital, he'd be like, Oh no.

Cam: 3:36

Literally what I I thought about was when we found out about you know, we were planning for a home birth for this last one, and then we found out about the twin. Like, I remember the first thing that I said to you was like we've got this. Like, uh because you you had said something along the lines of like, I don't want to have to fight. I don't want to have to stand up. I'm like, well, I I will. Like, I will like literally, I was like, until we knew what our plan was, like I daydreamed about that, about like someone saying something about like we should do this or you should do that, and then us me knowing that that's not on our on our agenda, and then like literally daydreaming about being like, hell no, like that is not how this is going down. Yeah, like we do not consent, like do not, do not, and luckily we didn't have to do that, but like, but you were right, but there's a but but there but the difference is is that I I was which time the first time 23 or 24. I don't know. I was 23 when I first was born, and then I was 31, 31 when the twins were born, so like and like have grown a lot, a lot since then, and so like different people. I'm a totally different man than I was when I was a boy when our first was born. You know what I mean? And and we have a completely different relationship dynamic and like understanding with each other, and like it's just totally different.

Angela: 5:30

I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer, experienced doula, childbirth educator, and your host here on the My Main Birth podcast. This is a space where we share the real life stories of families and their unique birth experiences in the beautiful state of Maine. From our state's biggest hospitals to birth center births and home births, every birth story deserves to be heard and celebrated. Whether you're a soon-to-be mom, a seasoned mother, or simply interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you. Hello everyone. This is episode 143 of My Main Birth. If you've had a chance to listen to the last two episodes, you already know Alana from Birth Body Photography. And for this very special episode, which is part three of this little mini-series of episodes titled How We Birth Matters, I had the chance to sit down with Alana and her husband Cam to get his perspective on witnessing the different births of their children. And I'm so excited to share it here with you today. Cam, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today about birth. It's so exciting.

Speaker 6: 6:47

Of course.

Angela: 6:48

And on the podcast. So I'm very excited.

Speaker 6: 6:50

Oh, look at that.

Angela: 6:52

Yeah. So to get started though, I'm kind of curious what were some of your views and like opinions about birth, like going into the first pregnancy. What were some of maybe stories that you heard about birth growing up? And like what were your like thoughts just about the whole thing then?

Cam: 7:07

Honestly, with our first, I didn't really have much going on about it. I had not been around many, if any, pregnant people or even kids in general. Like, I hadn't been around a lot of like younger kids. So like birth wasn't really something that I had any preconceived notions about just because it was so foreign to me. So the little bit that I did have were like, you know, the crap you get from like the media and hospital for the hospital birth class we took. Yeah, exactly. It's basically like what you get from TV and movies, and then the the little what one hour two times or something like that of the birth class we took. So um very, very little, honestly. It was I I didn't have much as far as like expectations going into it.

Angela: 8:10

And Alana, I think it's really interesting what you just brought up about the hospital birthing class, because yeah, a lot of times the hospitals offer these childbirth education classes, which like in hindsight, like I took one of those from my first birth too, and I felt like it was just like a course on like all the interventions, all the things that are like gonna happen to you when you get there. Did you feel the same way? Like, what were your guys' thoughts on that course?

Alannah: 8:32

I mean, I didn't know any better at the time, but honestly, yeah, it did kind of feel like basically like a run-down sort of itinerary of like when you come, this is what's gonna happen, this is what's next, this is how things progress, this is what we do, this is what you know, and it just kind of it wasn't it wasn't like this in-depth, like this is what birth is. Right. Like there was no real like there was no talk of how birth really like affects you and you know what it means to feel supported and like what that's like and I don't know, there it wasn't like this in-depth sort of thing. It was really just you come in and you push your baby out, and I think they showed us a video, actually, yeah, something like that. Of like a of a of an unmedicated, I think, hospital birth, I guess. So I don't know, that's kind of weird that they would do that again. Now thinking back, I'm like, oh, because while that can happen, I I wouldn't consider that to be the norm. But yeah, it wasn't it it's surface level, I guess you could say, I think.

Cam: 9:49

Yeah, it was like a dry run of what to expect when of what to expect if everything goes the way that they expect things to go.

Angela: 9:59

Yeah. Yeah. So I think your account of that first birth experience, Alana, was extremely powerful when you when you shared it. Cam, would you kind of walk us through your experience of that first birth?

Cam: 10:15

Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's like it's one of those things that I've we've talked about it before where I feel like I have I have such a hard time recalling it because I I feel like it's a multiple points. Like I we were, I was, I felt, I feel like looking back, I was so young then. But then also now looking back as more mature, I feel like everything just happened so so quickly for me that like some of it I have no real recollection of a lot of the individual, like the each moment, because not only did it happen so quickly and we were so young, I feel like we we didn't have that thought process after the fact, or at least I didn't to process it and like talk about it and like really hash out what happened and like what we're feeling about it. And so it sometimes it feels like a lot like our wedding, where it's like it happened and we were there, and like I remember because we talk about it and I remember it, but then like I don't really remember it, but it was just so much, yeah. And because we were so young and so new to things, I feel like so much of it did revolve around us having like in the process of meeting our our our our helpers and whatnot that we trusted the people around us to help us through the process.

Alannah: 11:49

And I mean, I feel like I mean some of that too, as far as like processing after the fact, I feel like I wanted to do nothing but talk about it. Yeah, I feel like for me it was like this all-consuming sort of like I mean, as I was kind of describing in the last episode, it was like this this all-consuming like disappointment and rage and sadness and like all of this stuff where I just felt so let down and I felt so like, what the hell just happened to me, you know, and then so it's like for me, I all I wanted to do was like get that out, and all I wanted to do was talk about it. And it actually, I mean, we've we've kind of talked about that some where it would like that was a really big disconnect point for the two of us, because you know, while obviously from his standpoint, like that was probably really, really scary and really overwhelming and all of this stuff, but it and while things did happen to him, the stuff was like physically really happening to me. And so it just felt like this huge disconnect after the fact and and also like being like you know, we were young, like he was he was a planned baby, but we were still young. And I think as a man, you know, it's not it's not something where you can easily talk about feelings and you know, all of this stuff. Like, you know what I mean? Where it just I wanted to talk. I wanted, you know, because cause he also like was seeing things and hearing things and experiencing things that I maybe didn't know or didn't see or didn't remember. And I was so, so desperate for the pieces of the puzzle to be put together for me because I didn't have photos, I didn't have videos, I didn't have anything. And so it was like I I'm like, someone help me. I need to know, I need to remember, I need to fit the whole everything together. And so for me, as like this out loud sort of processor and wanting to kind of have that, and I wouldn't consider you to be that way so much, you know, compared to me anyway.

Angela: 14:16

Must be so hard just like having gone from like, okay, like I don't really know that much about birth from the you know, like the man's perspective, and then having an experience like that, and then witnessing, you know, Alana in her postpartum, like how were you processing all of that from your perspective?

Cam: 14:33

So I feel like so much of it was I wasn't processing it. I I feel like I I was very because of my I assume I looking back probably my age mostly, but I was very immature about most things where I I didn't even care to try to understand the how how much of an impact something like that could have have on Alana, let alone on myself. So like there was very little processing on my own end. And because of that, that was kind of like a theme for me where I, if there was something that was hard, I would avoid it.

Alannah: 15:21

So and that was hard.

Cam: 15:24

And that, yeah, and that was that was hard. Yeah, it is because then it it makes it makes it harder in the long run, because then you're not you're not dealing with it, and then it all piles on, and then all of a sudden you're having to work through something together and like talk over something that is so like difficult to talk about, anyways, but then also because we like I waited so many years to even try to work through how it, how, how the our first birth impacted Alana, and how that impact impacted me, and how the way that I wasn't there for myself or for Alana impacted the whole situation because there was very little, honestly, like there was very little reflection on my end, which it led for like kind of difficulty in the healing process leading into our other births, because I hadn't even worked on processing what was a difficult birth for us to begin with. And I feel like even now I have a hard time processing what happened and how it how it made me feel, and like the because like there was fear that I felt in in the moment, right? And even now I have a hard time remembering what happened and why I felt the way I did, and and then afterwards, once we're settled in after after Mason was born, right? After you know, we're we're settled in and Alana's asleep, I'm holding the baby, and then I don't think about anything else other than like I'm just holding a baby, and so it was very hard for me to then like go from those beautiful moments that feel really good to reflecting on the things that happened that like led up to that, which is weird because then we have these births that we've had over the last few years, and it feels so different. And part of that I think is that we've grown as individuals, we've grown as as like a couple, as as a as a partnership, but also now that we've been in it a few times, and like you've been in the birth world way more, and it just it is something that is not as foreign to me now, even if I'm not necessarily not an expert. No, you know what I mean? Like I don't sometimes Alana says something and I'm like, and that and what remind me what that is again, and but then so I you know I'm just I'm just a dude who does his thing, but I I am very comfortable in this world now. So like looking back, it's so it's so hard to to see the way that I handled things, the way that we handled things then, and then look at it from now and think, like, man, we could have made that a lot easier on ourselves.

Speaker 8: 18:35

Yeah, we could have done it way different.

Cam: 18:37

Yeah.

Angela: 18:38

Yeah. And I really think that like even what you kind of mentioned, Alana, too, like it, you know, it's really hard for you guys as a couple afterwards. Like that I feel like happens to so many families that go through, especially young families that go through like hospital birth and to have things happen to them. And then it's just really hard to have that. It's just like you have to work harder, you know, like almost like at like relationship things, like after yeah, yeah.

Alannah: 19:01

It ends up not being this sort of you're just navigating postpartum with this new baby, and you're so exhausted, and you're healing, and you're this, and you're that. It's like it wasn't just that, it was this whole other umbrella, gigantic, like for me, really dark rain cloud. In addition to the regular stuff that is normal and fine, there was also this really not okay stuff. And yeah, and I just think like our support system was non existent, yeah, pretty much non-existent.

Cam: 19:43

Or at the very least, the the support system that we had was very, very surface level.

Alannah: 19:47

Not not really like what what we really needed, and you know, we were naive, we were just yeah, you know, and then and then thinking. About you know, us as a married couple after the fact, trying to to just you know, it's so exciting to have this new baby and you love him so much, like you've never felt anything like that in your life. And then for me, also having this other thing to carry and and feeling guilt about that, and then it just makes it so much harder when you're trying to go through early postpartum and you have a partner and like you're a good helper, like you want to help, you know, and and he's he's he's he's there. And but for me, there was like this huge disconnect because I had so much weighing on me from from our birth and and part of that that I've I mean a huge piece of what I've had to work through is kind of letting that piece go, like that piece of I don't know if we could just say resentment and and anger toward toward him because he left because he took our baby and he left.

Cam: 21:16

Not because he wanted to, not because he would have chosen to do that, but because the people who we trusted to be our support people and to help guide us through whatever we came into during that birth process, they told me to take the baby and leave the room. They took me and put me in a room across the hall and left me there alone.

Alannah: 21:43

Like they just you know, because the choice was either you go with the baby, yeah, or someone else takes the baby, right? And I was not about to have a stranger take our baby, that was not gonna happen, and the he was what not 15 minutes old, 20 minutes old, maybe a little older, not even.

Cam: 22:00

I had never I had never held a a baby, let alone my baby.

Speaker 10: 22:07

Right.

Cam: 22:08

Ever. And then the the first thing that they do is they because they're having because because they're having problems doing what they're supposed to be doing, they had me do that. And like that, even now I have a hard time like thinking really coming to terms with how that affected me, because you wouldn't have chosen to do that. No, no, I I wouldn't have. No, and like it just like the thinking back on it about how like I I had never hold held any baby before, let alone my own baby, and then the first time that I am holding my baby, my son, I am alone with him for the first time. I am like and it and on top of that, it was because they had to do something to my wife, who was clearly in distress, and then I was taken from her, like I'm her person, she's my and then I'm literally like ripped away from her.

Alannah: 23:21

Ripping away the one thing I wanted, right, which was our baby.

Cam: 23:26

Yeah, yeah. And then I'm sent across the room or across the hall with no one there. I I didn't have I didn't have anything. I mean, like I didn't have I mean, this was years ago, so like we didn't have like good smartphones anyways, but I didn't have my phone. I didn't have I mean it was it was an emergent situation and it was like me and my literally minutes old baby who I've never held before. I'm thrown in uh a room across the hall with a clock, and like I'm just like left there to like I I I had no, I don't know, it was and you had no nobody told you what was happening with me.

Alannah: 24:04

No, they didn't tell me what was happening with me.

Cam: 24:06

They didn't even tell looking back at it. I don't know, maybe they said something, but I don't even I don't remember it. They didn't even tell me like what was going on. They didn't tell me either. Why did the baby need to be taken from her? Why am I being put across the hall? Like, why is this and so that's that's the thing where I feel I feel I feel a lot of feels because we're supposed to be able to trust these people, and we did.

Alannah: 24:35

Well, and well, we trusted the people we knew, I guess, but this more in charge, right? Dr. TARDIS coming in who's who you know, I guess is the authority, according to him. And tenured he the only thing I can think is because you know, he wanted he wanted the baby off of me, I guess, in this situation, which I mean I'm not a doctor, I'm not a midwife, but that was not necessary. He could do everything that he needed to do without disrupting what was going on above the waist.

Cam: 25:13

And I mean, I think if you have take a holistic view to it, it arguably made things work harder for him.

Alannah: 25:19

It made everything worse. It made everything worse on uh I mean ever it just made everything worse because really what was going on was like he wanted the baby off of me, I guess because he said so. I don't know. And he was fine on my chest. He was he was fine, he wasn't crying, he wasn't we were just hanging out, it was what it should have been in that moment, and then he wanted me to pass the baby off, and that that was that was the turning point because he started to cry, you know, and so Cam is standing next to me holding our crying baby, and that's like a hell no from me. Not because you know, I knew that there was nothing wrong with him that you know, he wasn't crying because something was happening. He wanted to be with me, obviously, and I wanted to be with him, and they disrupted that, and so immediately that had me upset and that had me crying, and and I think that's why he sent he wanted them out of the room because I guess somehow that would make me more calm. I don't I I can't, I I've obviously for a very long time tried to make sense of it, and I can't because I I really can't understand how me being, I mean, I wouldn't say hysterical, really upset that I just had to hand my baby over, thankfully, just to you, but still had to hand my baby over and I wanted him. So, like if you want me to to calm down or if you want me to stop crying or whatever, like give him back. Don't don't send him and my one, my one support person away. Don't make them leave, don't put like in this, you know, supposed emergency situation, put me in a position where I'm either having to choose for my baby to go with a stranger or for my husband to take him away and both of them to be gone, you know? So it's I'm gonna just fuck that guy. I'm sorry. I'm just he deserves that. Richard Tardiff, fuck you. That feels really good to say.

Angela: 27:37

Well, on top of that, in your podcast episode, you mentioned that right after that happened, they pumped you full of drugs that you didn't give any consent for, so then you were not arguing, you're not crying out for your baby. Like, no, that's not yeah.

Alannah: 27:53

No, it was like because I obviously when he left with our baby, I cried and was way more upset than I was before. Um, and you know, that was probably annoying, I guess. I don't know. And so it was like, and then obviously there had there was something that was needing to be done with my placenta, which he I guess manually removed. And so I like to think that part of that is to was to like keep the pain at bay of what that would have felt like if I didn't have any medication. But I mean, I'm sure I was a lot easier to deal with when I just laid there quietly.

Angela: 28:36

So, you know, and then he mentioned the placenta was just right there, like maybe right there.

Alannah: 28:46

Yeah, that was a nice little jab for him to mention. It's just right there. Just had to just grab it. I don't know. Are we coming out anyway? Maybe they probably would have, you know, and I I can't help but wonder, you know, I remember my midwife mentioning that it was it had been about, you know, 30 minutes that my you know, my placenta hadn't come out yet. And I nothing bad had happened at that point. And so I can't help but wonder if she was like, oh, it's been like 30 minutes, and gave a little tug on the cord or something that maybe made that happen. Because I've I mean, you know, you can't always I'm never gonna actually know. I'm never gonna really know. But it's just something that I can't help but wonder about. Yeah, I can't help but wonder.

Cam: 29:31

And it's just if they just left me alone, do its thing, yeah.

Alannah: 29:35

Yeah. And I mean, as we know, like breastfeeding, holding your baby, smelling your baby, like all of that helps. That helps everything, you know, with your placenta and your bleeding and everything. And so, yeah, let's just take my baby out of the room, I guess. And and then for nobody to be with him, it was just it was it it it was a lot to I mean, it still is. It's a lot to carry that and to not let it. I mean, uh for me, I don't even know if I told you, maybe. I mean, I I used to date, like I was fine, I was fine, like I was momming that boy so hard, it was fine. And and like my connection with him was fine, and but it was our connection that was really put to the test. I I I would day literally daydream, like driving, I would daydream about packing up our baby and just him and I leaving and just going anywhere because I didn't want to cry. Because like for me, it just felt like no one was ever gonna understand what all of that felt like and so to feel so alone and also disconnected from from my husband, who's like he's been my best friend for 15 years, you know, and so so for that relationship to feel in jeopardy in a way because of that, because you know, like everything could have been different. He could have said, hell no, I'm not leaving this room. He could have done all of these things different, and so like how dare he not do that, you know, and it and so I literally used to dream about like just me and my baby just leaving because I didn't want to be around. I didn't want to be around all of these people who could who could never comprehend what I went through and you know what it took to get him here and and no one was ever gonna separate us again. That was for for damn sure, you know. And yeah, I mean, I was not as I had said before, I was not in a good place at all. And so it took a lot to kind of be able to, I don't know, maybe forgive and move through those feelings that I had toward him because we were both first-time parents. He was a first-time dad, you know, like he had never had to navigate a situation like that. He was correct me if I'm wrong, also traumatized by that, you know, like his wife is suddenly bleeding way too much, and something is happening in the next room that he doesn't know about, like all of that, and it's like how how I you know, you you only when you know better, you do better. I don't know, and we didn't know, and so it just a lot to kind of remember that we were both treated in a way that was not okay, and it wasn't while, yes, in a perfect world, him fighting back would have been great. That's a lot to expect in that situation, and you know, for having never done like I know now if we were to be in a hospital, he'd be like, Oh no.

Cam: 33:22

Literally, what I thought about was when we found out about you know, we were planning for a home birth for this last one, and then we found out about the twin. I remember the first thing that I said to you was like we've got this, like uh because you you had said something along the lines of like, I don't want to have to fight, I don't want to have to stand up. I'm like, well, I I will. Like, I will like literally I was like, until we knew what our plan was, like I daydreamed about that, about like someone saying something about like we should do this or you should do that, and then us me knowing that that's not on our on our agenda, and then like literally daydreaming about being like, hell no, like that is not how this is going down. Yeah, like we do not consent, like do not, do not, and luckily we didn't have to do that, but like, but you were right, but there's a but but there but the difference is is that I I was which time the first time 23 or 24 I was 23 when our first was born, and then I was 31, 31 when the twins were born, so like and like have grown a lot, a lot since then, and so like different people. I'm a totally different man than I was when I was a boy when our first was born, you know what I mean? And and we have a completely different relationship dynamic and like understanding with each other, and like it's just totally different, and we have talked a lot about all of these things, yeah.

Alannah: 35:20

And I mean, I also, you know, sometimes I need to get stuff off my chest from births that I go to, you know, and so he'll hear stuff, and you know, and so we both ended up, I feel like, growing from from all of our births and just our age and my time and other people's birth spaces, too.

Cam: 35:44

I think it also there's something to be said about how when when our first was born and we dealt with all of that initially, right? And we're already so we're naive and we're we're we're new to to to that in general, but then we leave the hospital after everything has happened, and then we are put back in our life. And the little bit of support that we did have was very, very surface level, where it's like if we felt like someone was actually like supporting us and helping us, it was on the level of is there anything I can pick up for you? Or like or yeah, right, let me know if you need anything. Not like I'm gonna come and do this, or I'm gonna help you do this, or you need time to be just you, so we're gonna go out, you know, that sort of thing. You know, we were thrust back in our in our life where we're we were already like me, for example, like I we were fairly freshly married. We had only been married a year and a little when Mason was born. We had been it was two years married, right? So we were young, we were newly married. I was still really like finding myself as a man, as an adult. I was really in the the beginning stages of creating my my place. Like I wasn't happy with my job. I was like actively trying to move forward in like that world. I was like not super happy with what was going on around me and trying to grow, which was is difficult in and of itself, especially when you like don't have the support or like the examples around you of like where you want to go with that. And that is hard in and of itself. But then you bring in the fact that on top of that, we're dealing with new parenthood, which is again tough in and of itself. But then you throw in the spice of the trauma that happened and my slash our inherent immaturity or uh naivety, right, on discomfort around like the communication process, whatever it was. So all of those things compounded to make just the whole thing difficult because then you know we're in normal life and you want nothing but to talk about things. You want nothing but talk about- I haven't even had the ability the to to even think about how I need to process something, that there's even something for me to process, let alone process it. But then that is just one of the pins on my board of the things that I'm having to deal with and process and work through. And so, like not being able to like I was so unsupported, I guess, really, even in not not birth-related stuff, that I wasn't able to like have that that space and that understanding to know that like that stuff is just as important as as important, if not more important, than the things like the stepping stones you have to deal with to get through like your career challenges and that like the heart and the soul stuff is you can't get anywhere if you're not happy, and like happiness has to start first before you can do the other, you know.

Alannah: 39:47

So, like and why and that was part of what was so hard is like while we were happy, so in love with our baby, so happy as a family.

Cam: 39:57

Happy with the growth that was happening happening. We were our family like we had a baby. Like we I w I while I wasn't where I wanted to be, I I was advancing in my career, right? I was getting raises and getting better jobs and whatnot. Yeah. We're working on buying our first home.

Alannah: 40:15

Yeah, it wasn't like everything was just awful and miserable and our whole lives came crashing down. It was like this having to hold both things where there was a crisis that we didn't deal with together.

Cam: 40:29

But then in the other hand, we're literally like working together on everything that we love in our lives and trying to like grow our family and our in our world. And as we while also holding the things that we haven't dealt with, the things we haven't unpacked, that baggage. Yeah.

Alannah: 40:47

And for me, I've learned about myself that like I have a really hard time functioning generally when I have we could just say an elephant in the room. He is a lot better about comparable. Yeah, compartmentalizing and you know, just kind of setting things aside and and avoiding, as I think he mentioned earlier, you know, and I can't do that. I cannot do that. And so there was also that piece of like, how can how are you fine? How are you like just cruising along? Like this doesn't affect you the way it's affected, like how you know, and so that just like built on this disconnect that I felt because I was suffering, and like really like on a deep heart and soul level suffering. And and it felt like he was just he was fine, like, yeah, that really sucked, and that was really hard, but whatever. Like, we can just move on, you know, because he can just be like, okay, that really sucked, and that was really hard. And I don't feel like I can deal with that. So I'm gonna put that away and still be able to function just fine in my regular life. I'm not so much like that with anything, not just like really, really hard, traumatic stuff. It's like if something needs to be hashed out, talked about, worked through, processed, like it completely affects my day-to-day ability to do anything because it just weighs on me. And then it's like I'm playing it through my head, I'm thinking about it, I'm feeling it, all of this stuff, and then to feel like I'm kind of doing that by myself was so was so hard and just added it, just it just layers on layers, you know. I don't know, it was it was hard, and you know, and to kind of hear you years and years later, I know that you've like sorry if this is I think you're okay about it, for for you to bring up in therapy, you know, I know that you haven't necessarily spent like all sorts of time talking about our first birth experience, but I know that it's come up and and you've told me that's really hard for you to talk about. You know, and so it's it's like honestly, in a way for me that makes me feel a little better, that it is hard for you to talk about. Not that I I don't want that, I want you to be able to, you know, but just to know that that actually affected you. I mean, and it's after like I don't want either of us to carry any of this, but just knowing that I'm actually not alone in the world.

Angela: 43:52

I appreciate both of you so much for having this conversation because like that's it right there. Like, you are not alone. There are so many, unfortunately, families that experience exactly what you're describing after a birth that doesn't go as you imagined it would. And so, like, Cam, after that first birth, were you kind of like, wait, like, did you think that was just like how birth goes? Like, because you didn't really have much to compare it to. So, going into the second and third births, what were your like expectations?

Cam: 44:23

Well, so while I didn't necessarily know like how I want to say out of the norm that was, like, I knew except maybe not really out of the norm, just saying. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. How how out of the norm it should have been about that? Yeah, I did know that it wasn't the norm to like have that have the emergency team called in and then have to like have part of your placenta removed later.

Alannah: 44:56

You know, like that was yeah, that was a piece I didn't even get it into after the fact. So I'd retain it. No, you're fine.

Angela: 45:05

I thought that he had the whole placenta in that moment. No.

Alannah: 45:09

Uh well, we thought he removed the whole placenta and he didn't.

Angela: 45:12

Yeah.

Alannah: 45:13

So there was, and I had no idea until I think it was like two months. I I kind of like just kind of kept bleeding off and on, not really bad, but just in a way where I was like, Oh, my bleeding's stopping, cool. But then it would kind of come back a little bit and then it would go away and then it would come back. And I remember talking to my midwife and being like, I kind of thought my bleeding would be done by now at eight, eight to ten weeks postpartum, you know. And she was like, you know, yeah, I kind of think that it should be done by now. And she said, I'm a little bit worried that you have some some maybe a piece of retained placenta. And so she wanted me to to take um, or no, I I think maybe I went in for an ultrasound. If this is totally like a left turn that we're not talking about right now, you can stop me here.

Angela: 46:06

I'm super curious if you have like a few minutes to kind of just like share that because I think that's a really big piece of like, okay, he you know came in, yeah, like Mr.

Alannah: 46:15

Authority figure, and then didn't even do the job all the way. Yep. So yeah, she wanted me to go in for an ultrasound, which I didn't realize at the time was gonna be, I didn't realize what a pelvic ultrasound was. I didn't realize that that was like an internal ultrasound. So when I showed up, that was super uncomfortable to me. I still like we had not been intimate postpartum. I was still bleeding, you know, and so that was just we were tired, whatever. That was not a thing. So it's like there had been no my body was like off limits for everybody except my baby. And so like that felt like I was not prepared for that, so that kind of sucked. And they did find that there was, I think it was about the size of a nickel, a piece, a piece of my placenta still. So she wanted me to take oh, I can't remember. I know it's like is it? I think so. I think that that was it. I can never remember the name. She told me that it was gonna be awful. She told me to take it like over a weekend when I knew that Cam would be home to help with the baby, to help take care of me. And she said that, you know, because it's such a small piece, like hopefully this will pass it. We don't have to worry about anything after that, but to just be prepared that it was probably really gonna suck. And I was like, wow, okay, great. So I took it. It wasn't awful. I actually didn't feel anything from the medication at all. And and I didn't, I thought maybe at one point there might have been a piece that released, but but it didn't. So I went in and we found that there was there was still placenta. And so it was literally the next day at exactly two months postpartum, it was Valentine's Day. She was like, So I want you to come in tomorrow and we're gonna do a DNC. And um, she called in an OB to just kind of a different OB, um, to just be like, hey, so like, do you think that that's what we should do? Could we leave it? Could we just wait and see? Because I didn't feel any sort of way. I felt fine, like I wasn't feverish, wasn't having anything other than that sort of intermittent bleeding. So, so my midwife was like, Can we leave it? You know, and this OB was like, I don't think so. I think that we need to get rid of it. And so it was literally like come in tomorrow morning. And I was like, Okay. And like texting later on with my midwife, she was like, She was like, Do you have any milk saved in the freezer? And I was like, I have about 12 ounces, like catching in the haka. I had not brought out a pump, I hadn't done any of that. I was just exclusively breastfeeding. I was with my baby all the time. I didn't need to do that, you know. But I just had happened to have a little bit, 12, 12 whole ounces in the freezer. And she was like, Oh yeah, that's not gonna be enough. And I was like, whoa, what? Like, and then suddenly I'm panicking, which come to find out then, you know, talking with the OB, it was an anesthesia, like that it was okay, that even though I was going to be put under general anesthesia, that it was still gonna be safe for me to breastfeed, and that I wasn't because she brought up pump and dump, and I was like, oh my God, like what how am I gonna feed my baby then? Because I have 12 ounces in the freezer, and that's all. And I didn't want to give him a bottle. I didn't pumping and dumping, no, thank you. You know, it was just this whole like I was panicking because this was happening tomorrow. So there was no like, oh, pump for a few weeks and get a you know, there was there was no time. And so I was panicking and then found out that I wasn't gonna have to do that and it was gonna be okay as far as my my supply and all that was gonna be okay. So that at least relieved a little bit of pressure there. I'm literally like, I don't, I hate talking about this. Like, I know it's important, but it's so like I it I've yeah. So I went in and Cam and our baby. We all we all went in. Um, and I like laid in that bed, like waiting for my turn to go in, just like breastfeeding forever. I just like just fed my baby, just fed him, fed him, fed him, fed him. Because I knew that it wasn't gonna be a super long time back there, but you know, he's two months old, he's gonna want to eat every 30 seconds, you know, whatever. And so I was just worried about that. Um, and I remember the doctor coming in, she brought the anesthesia guy, you know, she was like, Do you have any questions? And honestly, like I didn't really fully understand what a DNC was. My midwife didn't really explain it to me, other than like getting that piece of placenta out. And so for me, I kind of like I well, I wanted to know, obviously. Um, and and I remember asking her, like, so what what what's gonna happen? Like, what do you what do you do? Like, you know, and so she with this I don't I don't love men in my space in these types of situations, but the anesthesiologist was a man. Um, and so he was just sitting there um while I'm asking her this, and and she kind of gave me a rundown of like what was gonna happen, and it wasn't it wasn't like a super detailed explanation of like because to me when I was asking that, I'm like, I want to know step by step what you're gonna do, like what what is what's going on. Um, and after the fact, I'm like, oh yeah, I feel like you kind of omitted some things that maybe maybe that explanation would have been enough for someone, but it wasn't enough for me. And so, like, that was that. And I waited. And because also I couldn't eat, right? Because I'm gonna be under general anesthesia. So I'm like starving, and I'm trying not to worry how that's going to potentially like affect my milk supply. And oh, new mom, I like have all these worries. And so I'm waiting, and I remember a nurse coming in and doing something, and and I was like, Oh, um am I gonna have to have a catheter? And she was like, Oh, these are normally really quick, so I don't think so, probably not. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. And but yeah, I didn't even I I was like, I was really afraid, and so they were gonna wheel me back, and of course, like I'm like waving bye to my two-month old, and like as a new mom too, and like with all of the heaviness I'm holding on to about his birth and stuff, I'm suddenly like, what if I don't wake up? What if like what if something happens? I don't know. And so it was just really scary. I had never been under general anesthesia. Um, aside from when I was 16, I had my wisdom teeth out. Um, that was it. Um, I was not, I've never had like an operation. I've never been in an OR, I've never none of that. Really, the only time I had been in a hospital was to give birth. And so they wheeled me back. And I I don't know what I expected an OR to look like, but it wasn't really that. It was a big room, it was bright, it was white and metal, and there were a lot of people in there. I was really surprised by how many people. Um, and there were men in that room. I didn't like that. And I mean, you know, obviously this wasn't an emergency, so I could move my own body, I could do whatever. So like I scooched myself over onto the onto the table. And and I remember this this woman, I don't know if she was anesthesia or whatever, and she I had a nose ring and and she was like, they didn't have you take that out. And I was like, What? Like, I didn't even realize that she was talking about at first, and I was like, Oh no, sorry, you know, I don't, and she was like, Oh well, like it'll be it'll be fine, it's fine. Like, we'll just I don't know if they put tape over it or something. And I'm like, who why are we talking about my nose ring right now? I was like, what the hell? Um and it's like I laid back and I'm still, I'm just kind of like silently crying. Like I wasn't in full hysterics. I just I had tears, and I remember one of the nurses was a guy, actually, and he was the only, he he came up to me with a something, tissue, whatever, and he wiped my tear. Like the only one really to I don't know, it just felt like a silent recognition of like I see you and I see that you're upset, and I see that this is probably not easy for you. Um and like in the moment I was like, well, that's nice. Um but I was so scared, I was so scared, and then like I laid back on the table, and then I'm seeing them they're you know, people are getting ready, and they lift up these giant stirrups on the end of the bed, you know, and they're padded, they're big, they're black, they're like it's like a hole, not just for your feet, like to put your whole legs in. And I so wish they waited until I was asleep before they did that, because it really was like, oh right, like I'm about to be knocked out, and and the most vulnerable, like personal part of my body is about to fully be out there for everybody in this room. That piece hadn't really sunk in until I saw them do that, and I saw a guy like in the far corner, like with a whole bunch of like instruments in front of him, just metal, shining metal. And they put the stirrups up, and and I just they put me to sleep, and I woke up and they got it, it was fine, and and I remember like to circle back around. At some point, I had to go to the bathroom after I woke up, and when I went, it burned so bad, and I realized they did give me a catheter. So you know, I asked this nurse because I want to know what's gonna happen to my body, you know, she's like, Oh, I don't think so. Not let me find out for you, let me go check, but no, I don't think so. And then I was like, Oh, actually, yeah, that you definitely did, because I can tell. And yeah, and so it really just um like I don't even know how long that was. I don't it wasn't all that long.

Cam: 58:27

Total.

Alannah: 58:28

Yeah, I don't even think I was back there for an hour.

Cam: 58:31

I was gonna say total, I think it was like an hour and a half or two hours like from because they wouldn't let you out right away after you woke up. Yeah. So I think it was two hours less than.

Alannah: 58:43

Yeah, so it wasn't a terribly long time. And and I I didn't have like there weren't complications. They got the piece of placenta out. She did tell me the doctor obviously, she like came in and talked to me after the fact, and she said um everything went smoothly, but they did they had to put a stitch on my cervix because the clamp that they used, which she didn't tell me that that was that they were gonna clamp my cervix to hold on or pull it or whatever the hell was going on. That wasn't a piece of what she explained to me before when I was asking. And so she said, like, oh, sometimes that happens just like the teeth on the clamp can sometimes, you know, whatever rip put tear your cervix some. And so they just put a little stitch in, no big deal. Um and so like that that was over with, except it wasn't. And and by it wasn't, I mean like yes, physically I was okay, but I I still I mean that. one of the flashbacks that I have where it even like my birth and the DNC it was like it's like I see myself like I'm looking down at myself. It's like an out-of-body sort of a thing. Um and and yeah I just you know I I was grateful that that was over with and it was fine. I wasn't bleeding anymore all the placenta was out and everything and I was physically healthy and my milk supply was fine. I was very happy for that. But I felt still I still but I felt so violated. I felt like I felt like gross um and I mean like I said it's like this this out of body view of myself that I have and obviously I was asleep in the OR so I don't actually know but it's what my mind has sort of has sort of done in the trauma of it all. And I just feel so yeah it just it felt like a huge violation and you know it was like I feel I feel like I don't really I can't I don't know I'm gonna do it. I feel a little bad but I'm gonna draw a comparison um that I maybe don't have any business doing um but thankfully I've never been sexually assaulted I never have so I don't know what that feels like but this kind of feels like what I would think that that would feel like you know I don't things happen to my body and in my body that that I had no control over like of course I signed the form I gave permission you know but but I was asleep.

Cam: 1:02:24

Permission for what?

Alannah: 1:02:25

You didn't know yeah I mean in the grand scheme I didn't yeah really know what I was giving permission for other than like we needed to get that piece of placenta out you know but like but still being under general anesthesia and I mean especially after all the trauma that I already went through um with again things happening to my body um that I didn't really have control over you know like Dr. Tardiff wasn't like hey excuse me do you mind if I reach into your body and get your placenta I don't if he asked me that I was not I don't remember it I don't remember answering him I didn't care about anything but my baby and so again I was back in a situation where things were happening to my body my most the most private like vulnerable piece of my body and I had no I had no idea I don't know at like a room full of pe it just it makes me feel so uneasy and sick to my stomach to think about myself in that way um just laying back on the table with my legs open in front of a bunch of strangers um and not not being there you know because I'm asleep so not being there to to be there you know and um and so it just you know and that was at two let's suppose part of to the day and and that's just a whole other piece of like being feeling violated feeling like I don't know it just felt awful it still feels awful I still I mean I guess we could chalk this up to some PTSD because I get flashbacks of these things all the time um and and then it just builds on feeling so angry that not only did Dr Tardiff completely you know steamroll my birth but he didn't even do it right he didn't even do it right he didn't even do it all the way he he left a piece there and and somehow no one knew and and then I had to go be traumatized all over again in a different way but a similar way and I'm not a super like free with the body kind of person like I'm not I maybe a little bit more now than I was then but but to know that I had all of those people seeing me in that way just it just doesn't feel good you know and then to to feel like I don't fully necessarily know everything because I'm like okay so maybe that OB didn't fully describe everything. And I remember like frantically over a period of time like trying to look up as much stuff as I could about DNCs and what happens and how do they do it and you know whatever because I'm like I don't it in a way it kind of made it worse because then I'm thinking about I'm thinking about all that stuff happening to me but in a way like I also needed to know I needed I needed to know to to put I needed to put pieces together so that was just a whole a whole other thing on top of it all and and now you know with my medical chart DNC DNC is there. Placenta and yep and all of that and then you know going into my second birth I it that obviously was a fear of mine was my placenta and and I remember asking my new midwife like what are the chances of that happening again and she couldn't tell me because we didn't know why it had happened and we didn't you know whatever and does it really make you just kind of like what would have happened if like your birth was a little more undisturbed you know like yeah yeah because like I said I can't help but wonder like did my midwife pull on the umbilical cord some and maybe it just kind of like and not to mention in a hospital you're also just kind of messed with routinely anyway with the the rubbing and the suctioning and the blankets and they want to cut the cord and they want to blah blah blah blah blah.

Cam: 1:07:34

Because their job is to strategically poke and prod you every certain amount of time so that they can gauge where you're at and what kills me is that he made that something about like it's just right there.

Alannah: 1:07:48

And all that was left behind was that little nickel size piece that would had still stuck onto the wall and so if it was then was it not working its way out and your body just needed a frickin' minute to get that last little nickel size piece to let loose but the act of pulling it off on its own that is what made it because if that little piece wasn't quite ready so clearly because that pulled it out and got it but like he got the part that was already coming out like but the piece that was stopping it was the piece he didn't get and then just like couldn't you have been more thorough if you were gonna screw up my life like that couldn't you have just done it more thoroughly please because you would have saved me a whole lot of more trauma if you had just done a better job.

Cam: 1:08:49

Because there was the initial trauma of what happened in the hospital and like everything that happened surrounding that and then the act of the removal right but then so then you're left you we are left with that but that's that it is mostly a mental emotional trauma right but then you find out after the fact that he sucked at what he did and left that behind. So now it has turned it into a a physical trauma or turned it back into a physical trauma that you then have to go and do another thing which then adds to and creates a new physical trauma and a new emotional and like mental aspect to it as well. So like it's it's the initial traumatization then just created more that then just added more onto it. It wasn't a new a different a completely different and new trauma experience it was something that was it was directly related to arguably caused because of this and so then it just made something that was like I don't want to say made a mountain out of a molehill because it was already a mountain on its own but like it made a mountain into something way even bigger. And something that just impacts you in a completely different way.

Alannah: 1:10:34

And and it's like in these situations too like you know that that Dr. Tardiff and the other OB who did the DNC like all of these people they've never thought about that again. No they've never I can guarantee they don't have any idea who I am they don't know my name they don't they don't remember me they walked they they walked out of that room they went home for dinner that day and they never thought about me again. Because that was just a Tuesday that was just a a regular day for them and for me it changed everything literally changed everything. I mean I'm still like our oldest just turned nine yesterday and I'm still crying about this stuff today you know and think about it a lot you know and yeah I mean to say how we give birth and the care that we have and the the informed consent and the just the communication it's all so important. And that was lacking for sure for me.

Speaker 6: 1:11:44

Yeah.

Angela: 1:11:45

Yeah wow so Cam when did your views on birth start to shift? So after your first three births Alana became a birth photographer. So I know I'm a birth photographer and my husband here as you know like he knows a lot more about birth now than he did before. So like you're starting to hear all of these things like learning about birth your wife becomes a birth photographer like when did you start to be like okay that was actually not how it's supposed to go and then like yeah leading into when you found out you guys were pregnant for the fourth time.

Cam: 1:12:16

Yeah well I I think that I think that part of when Alana decided to to pick up the camera and to do the thing there was I think maybe on her end like explaining herself to me or at least like telling me like why she wanted to do it. And I I know that a big part of it my understanding of it came out then when in just in talking to me about how like that has been such a big deal for her healing process and wanting to be that for other women to be able to at the very least offer that service so that God forbid this happens to someone else they can have the photos to help to be able to process and look back on it and heal or on the on the other hand just to to be able to offer that to someone to have right like celebrate those that I think that that was a big part of it for my understanding was like it impacted her so much that now she wants to do that because she sees and feels and I see and feel how much of an impact it's had on her and our healing process because like honestly like the photos it's not just for you like it helps me too because even our I'm gonna say our new babies our our more recent births like not our first right uh are I can remember them better. But again it's like your wedding where like you remember bits and pieces of it but you remember but I remember so much more of the parts that we have photos of because then in the aftermath talking about our experience and then looking back on the photos the couple photos that I took on my phone or what whatever that just like pings at the memory and then it helps to really lock that in right so in we both started our businesses at the same time like we I quit my job I you know we were both we were free agents for a minute there right and we were all in like I I quit my job because I needed to we need to we needed to figure out our space at home mentally and so I was home I had recently quit my job she had been a stay-at-home mom and she told me to start my business and I told her to pick up the camera to do the thing right and so we were kind of working through that together and in that process I feel like you're telling me about all of that really helped me to understand your thought process going into it which then kind of I don't know made it made me start to look at things differently and then in the whole process of you starting to do the birth and then come home and share those experiences with me and like me see the photos even just even if you weren't actually sharing the photos with me but just like seeing them on the screen when I walked by and whatnot it's I felt that even though I wasn't in the birth space my wife is in the birth space you know and so it I inherently started to get more comfortable with the the workings of birth. But then also you would tell me things and like explain certain circumstances that happened and like it maybe compare them to ours or whatever. And then I would start to see her telling me this happened and then she's got an attitude about it like it shouldn't have happened that way or whatever. And then so I start to see like what is normal what is normal for modern day hospital births what is normal for the human body what is normal for home births and then I started to really be able to make my own conclusion draw my own conclusions and create like a real more uh more in-depth understanding of like what birth is and now that it's been after I I want to say I want to say after after our second I feel like I was a little bit more confident in myself and like a little bit more I I had a more genuine understanding of like just the world in general and so like seeing that and being able to look back on that birth helped me to then be able to really kind of understand like what birth is that like your body a woman's body is literally designed to do certain things and there are different things that we can do that can help to support to to guide the process in the direction that it's naturally going to go.

Angela: 1:17:57

And then obviously nothing no no system is a perfect system right even like leaving it to nature's system there are inevitably sometimes going to be those emergency situations where there's a retained placenta or whatever right but maybe they're not but but maybe it certain things would or wouldn't happen if we didn't stick our fingers or our whatever where they shouldn't be or where they don't necessarily need to be yet so Alana photographed a beautiful birth on Christmas morning I think a couple years ago like what were your thoughts like those photos were very popular like after yeah that um so like what were your thoughts like like being exposed to like births like that um like leading up to when yeah you became pregnant again it felt very real and like tangible like seeing those because it was you know in someone's home and like very clearly in someone's home.

Cam: 1:19:11

And it's not like because I before Alana started taking photos I had never experienced I mean I had never experienced a birth other than our own um or maybe a video in the birthing class right so I had never experienced anything other than what we experienced together. And then I started to get a little bit of a glimpse of home births and like what that was like and the casual doesn't feel like the right word but like the the normalcy to it how it was just it was just someone having a baby and like it was they were just having a baby on the carpet and their Living room.

Speaker 8: 1:20:00

You know, like it was it was in the bathroom, but that's fine.

Cam: 1:20:03

You know what I'm saying? Like it was just that.

Alannah: 1:20:06

Like it's not not to minimize how like gigantic birth is, but yes.

Cam: 1:20:13

That's what I was about to say. Yeah. It it it was just this. It wasn't a whole production at the hospital where they already have all this stuff laid out just in case, because this might happen. Right? Yeah.

Alannah: 1:20:31

Like uh birth in its like most basic form is not an emergency. Yeah.

Cam: 1:20:38

And that was, I feel like one of the biggest barriers that broke in my mind about birth, where it's like seeing the and again, just feels like it's minimizing it, but it was like just having a baby at home. Like it's not like, oh right, oh, you didn't make it to the hospital, or oh, you didn't, yeah, it was yeah, it was oh yeah, no, they they chose to have their baby at home because and unassisted, unassisted, you know, like and it and not because just because that's because there is no in and I come to find I've come to find this stands everywhere in life. There's no emergency until there's an emergency, like it's not a problem until it's a problem.

Alannah: 1:21:29

That was literally like the theme of my twin pregnancy. It's not a problem until it's a problem, and it might never be one, right?

Cam: 1:21:36

And all of these, you know, in in my head, I have all of these birth visions that were implanted in my mind growing up from movies and TV, which are so unrealistic now that I have witnessed the five births that we have had, and then you know what I have seen of what has been captured in like other births. Like, that's not what birth is at all. It's not the it's not the the person just bearing down and screaming at the dark. It's like it's not that. There's so much more of a holistic view of like it's a person bringing in another person into this world. It's like it's a it's a spiritual event, not a medical event. And we as a society have been we have been completely stripped of our inherent spiritual understanding about anything. So like the fact that it's birth, it's a medical event, it's not a spiritual event, and like the fact that I am even gonna say that it's a spiritual event as a society is weird, but it's like also, frankly, like as a man is also not the norm, like that, because like that's it, is like it's a spiritual event, but it could could be a medical event. Of course, there's like you have to be aware of things, but like you it's not you don't need to expect it to go. It's not a medical emergency unless it becomes right an emergency.

Angela: 1:23:22

And it does the medical staff is really amazing at handling emergencies and acting right, like, but they're not good at it just sitting and letting normal birth unfold, right?

Alannah: 1:23:32

So exactly.

Speaker 6: 1:23:35

Yeah, yeah.

Angela: 1:23:36

So I love how you described when you found out that you know you guys are having twins, like how you're like, I'll fight, you know, like if I need to. Like, I I love that. But like after that first appointment, like how did things unfold between the two of you, or you're like, okay, like we actually we're just gonna do this on our own. Like, how did that come about from your perspective, Cam?

Cam: 1:23:57

Well, I don't know, it did not, it did not settle all the way. Like, I feel like it took a lot for me to really come to terms with the fact that we were having twins.

Alannah: 1:24:14

Yeah, we still don't believe that.

Cam: 1:24:18

I I feel like even before we found out about twins, I feel like the fact that we were having another baby in and of itself was hard to wrap my brain around because I mean we already had we had three and they were wild, you know, they are wild.

Alannah: 1:24:36

Um and going into deciding to have a fourth, you knew that I wanted to have a baby at home.

Cam: 1:24:44

Yeah.

Alannah: 1:24:44

So like that was not foreign to you.

Cam: 1:24:47

No, and I was like, and I was excited for that, you know, like I feel like I was excited about it in two ways because I feel like part of it was that I knew before we had, you know, we had or we had had three hospital births and we wanted to have another baby, right? Going into that, I knew that if we had a baby at the hospital, that there was inherently going to be a need for me to stand up for us, to stand up for her and for our baby, babies. But and like on the one hand, I'm totally ready and willing to do that. But then on the other hand, knowing that you wanted to have a home birth, that I we wanted to have a home birth, that that removed the potential fight, right? I don't need to stand up against the insert authority figure here. I don't have to fight the fight. I can just be who my wife needs me to be. I can just be that support person for her. I can lock in and support her. I don't have to support her and fight for and be a bodyguard, you know. So like there was a level of relief of knowing that because like I feel like I I I yeah, I feel like generally speaking, people hear, oh, you're having a home birth. Oh, that's scary. But for me, there was a level of relief because I don't have to, I don't have I don't have the powers that be against the powers that be against us that I have to then worry about protecting against, right? So there was relief there, and then there was another layer of oh, so that means that we have to be ready, like, because like while it's not an emergency, there's a level of you need to be ready for certain stuff, right? So like you need to know what the what the plan is if something doesn't go as you have to be an active participant in this way, right? Right. Whereas when you hospital births, it's set up for you to be this way, but like it's way easier to just be like the passive observer, like the one who as the husband, as the husband, as the man, I do what I'm told. If someone needs my help, they will tell me. If I see something that I can do to help, okay, I'll help. But also, I don't want to get in someone else's way because they're the professionals, right?

Alannah: 1:27:36

Like what so and this was so not that no, so not that.

Cam: 1:27:42

But but yeah, I I knew how like how Morgan, I had you had talked about Morgan, I'd seen pictures, like I knew how Morgan made you feel in general, like just like not that she had ever been that for you in a birth, but like seeing yeah, you seeing how she is in births made you feel good. Which meant the way that you explained that like described her and talked to her, talked to me about her, made me feel good about her being our person. Yeah, and so I was excited for the prospect of a home birth. I mean, I I remember we were down by the river when we had gone to because we had like finally like talked, or like we're talking about we're gonna, we want it, we're actually ready to try for a baby now, right? And yeah, knowing that that was the that was the thing that like set the tone for me, like going into it, like okay, we're gonna have a home birth. So like I need to now I'm not gonna read the what to what to expect when you're expecting to expect as a dad, right? It's like it, I I could go into it like, okay, as a home birth, what is it that we need to what do I need to get? What are the things that I need to gather to be prepared? What is the knowledge that I need to know? Like, how how far into the world of birth do I need to go as far as my understanding to then be able to support Alana and support myself in the process of this?

Speaker 8: 1:29:17

And like, and then we found out it was two, right?

Angela: 1:29:22

And then we found out it was two finding out like that that comes within Maine, like not being able to have a midwife there. So, like, how did that like had what were your thoughts when like you were realizing all of that? So, were you realizing it in the appointment as Alana was kind of having her moment, like in the office? No, what that meant.

Cam: 1:29:41

Twins, twins have never a lot you had never photographed twins. I had never met a twin.

Alannah: 1:29:49

I mean, like, right, you know, turns out once you have twins, you find out that everyone is a twin, has twins, or knows twins, or like it's there everywhere.

Cam: 1:29:59

It's like when you get a new car, you've never seen that car on the road before, and now you have this new car, and all of a sudden everyone, every other car that you see is that car. And it's just like twins. Now, every single one of my I go to a new customer's house and they're like, Oh, hey, how's it going? Hi, I'm Cam, nice to meet you. We're chatting, and they find out we have twins, and they're like, Oh my god, I'm a twin, or I had twins, or my daughter had twins, or yeah, everyone has a twin, was a twin, or is friends with a twin. Like it's yeah. Um, but yeah, so I did not know the rules, yeah, I did not know the laws around that stuff at all. But if anybody knows me, they know that I am the type of person to say that oh, you are with the government and you set a rule that tells me what I can or can't do?

Speaker 8: 1:30:54

Well, I'm gonna do it.

Cam: 1:30:56

I don't agree with you at all.

Alannah: 1:30:59

So um when I found out that that because because initially did you really like was it clicking with you in the moment of me being like, I can't go to a hospital, I can't fight, I can't do what like were you in that moment realizing that that was gonna have to be the case for us then?

Cam: 1:31:19

Well, yeah, well, because because we found out the whole thing, and then like in the process of I don't remember how it came up, but yeah, it was in that moment that I think that in whatever Morgan said to you, that I was able to infer that twins that in my in my head that you're not allowed to have twins at home. Right. Like in my head, it wasn't until after the fact that I did make that whole connection about like it's not that you can't have them at home, it's that there is no one who can legally assist you with having them at home.

Alannah: 1:31:58

Right, like no licensed midwife in Maine can can be there to survive, yeah, yeah, aka Morgan.

Cam: 1:32:06

Well, right, and so in that in that process, I was definitely in that moment we saw the two on the screen, right? And she immediately knows what it means.

Alannah: 1:32:22

Morgan obviously immediately knows what it means, and it's like kind of she's I just can't it makes me laugh every time I think back to her being like, oh like that was literally like she just started and because she obviously was like, uh-oh, oh no, but just oh I'm like I love you for that, honestly. It's it's just a funny, it's a little funny memory to to think back on in that moment of like complete emotional upheaval to just oh it's just it's a little funny.

Cam: 1:32:54

I wasn't fully grasping, I think, the whole thing because I I was like trying to understand what was going on for myself, but then also trying to I'm literally stopping your piece be the emotional support that you need, yeah, but then also while obviously not trying to like get you to stop feeling trying to play the uh trying to help the boys because they were there trying to play that card of like mom's not upset about the babies, like like it's because it's not like this isn't how our plan can't be how what how our things are gonna go, like trying to get them to really understand that like mom's not mom's not sad about the babies, like it's not about like it's right.

Alannah: 1:33:54

Like you had this whole thing of like we have our three boys who are sitting there not really knowing what's going on, they're young, they're whatever, and then me who is like a complete wreck, and you're like, I need to handle the emotional climate of all four of these people right now, and I don't know, you know.

Cam: 1:34:10

And the three boys who, mind you, were already done, they were done. We had a because it was an hour and a half drive down there, plus we had already been in there. They had, you know, they had a couple little toys to play with that were there. They were done.

Alannah: 1:34:24

They were they were like, let's just hear the baby and can we just go?

Cam: 1:34:28

Yeah, and it was like we had finally gotten through enough of the appointment where it was like, okay, let's do this so we can finally we can hear the let's look. And then that and then that happened. And it's like, oh shit. You guys are tired and done, but now I need to like this is a whole thing for a minute. I need to kind of like coax you guys along enough that like because I'm trying to like, yeah, I'm trying to play damage control with the kids to get them to not be traumatized about us the about the day that we found out about the twins, but then also trying to be the emotional support for you and to get you to understand that like we're gonna figure it out, because I like because that's very much that's very much me. Like, give me give me whatever you're gonna fucking throw at me. We'll we'll figure it out, and I'm not gonna we're we'll figure it out. Maybe not right this second, but like I don't know what we're gonna do, but we're going to figure it out.

Alannah: 1:35:29

So I know he was like just I felt like that was the same vibe from both him and Morgan, where it was like, okay.

Cam: 1:35:37

You're not about to give birth to them right now, right? You don't have to walk into a hospital right now.

Alannah: 1:35:41

We don't have to make any decisions. Yeah, no decisions need to be made right this second.

Cam: 1:35:47

No one is going to force you to do anything.

unknown: 1:35:49

Yeah.

Cam: 1:35:49

And that was my big thing was like, we are not the same people that we were when even the last time that we had a baby in a hospital, because Kay was what, how old was he? Three and a half?

Speaker 8: 1:36:02

Something like that. Yeah.

Cam: 1:36:03

So like it had been three and a half, almost four years since we had had a baby, period. But like we can do it. Like, if we have to go to the literally, I'm telling you this: like, if we have to go to the hospital, I'm you were just I got you, yeah. I got this. I'm ready to be your bodyguard in this. Like, I'm not gonna let anything happen.

Alannah: 1:36:27

Which obviously I was like, great, great, thanks, but I don't want that.

Cam: 1:36:30

Right.

Alannah: 1:36:30

I don't like and I don't, I don't want that for me, and I didn't want that for you. I didn't want you to have to be in that mode of like protecting and guarding and watching out for what's going on and having to fiercely advocate. Like, I didn't want any of that for either of us. So while I was like, thank you, that's very nice, I'm also like, you're missing the point.

Cam: 1:36:52

And that's something I had thought about too in the moment, because I like how I wanted to be that like spiritual support for you in the moment, like how I was with Kellen and with Rome, like I wanted to be that for you. But then also knowing that like if I obviously would be ready and willing to, if I was ever put in that position that I needed to be the muscle that it would take away from my ability to like spiritually and emotionally support you in the moment. And because I wouldn't be able to let my like like put my hackles down and like right.

Alannah: 1:37:35

You were gonna be there, you would have to be on guard the whole time.

Cam: 1:37:38

Yeah, and then so I wouldn't have been able to uh soften myself as much as I wanted to to be able to like let it.

Angela: 1:37:46

It could be the experience like that you wanted it to be in, like for you guys to grow and bond as a couple, like because as you know, I'm sure, like how things turned out. Like, I'm yeah, I can't wait to hear like your thoughts on all that. But first, like what were your thoughts like about like really like okay, we're gonna do it, we're not gonna have a midwife. Like, what were your thoughts like around that?

Alannah: 1:38:06

Like you're like, oh god.

Cam: 1:38:12

It's just like it's one of those things where like I was I'm the type of person that like if you if you give me if you give me a problem and you tell me to make it happen, I'm gonna make it happen. You know, like under certain circumstances, I might I might complain the whole time, right? But I'm gonna make it happen. I'm gonna do it, right? So looking at this, I'm like okay.

Alannah: 1:38:40

I remember like when we were really talking about that and stuff, being like, are are you sure you're are you okay? You know, are I was like, Yeah, and he was like, Yeah, yeah, like you you trusted me.

Cam: 1:38:55

I I trust you, like I trust you through and through, like with my life, with my children's lives, I trust you. But I also like knew that like in that realm that you were so much more knowledgeable than me, but but so like I trusted your judgment on that, and then on the other hand, in my own mind, I was the type of person to look at the whole thing and to be like oh the medical system's broken, I know that, but what's not broken is a woman's body's ability to literally be designed to do this. So if you trust yourself and I trust you together, we could definitely do it, you know, is like and knowing also that we were able to surround ourselves with people who couldn't help us in the way that we planned.

Alannah: 1:39:59

Right, like Yeah, like Morgan, you know, she didn't, she wasn't like, Oh, you're pregnant with twins. Bye. You know, she was still she was the emotional support for us in in the process of like leading up to it, but also preparing for it, both physically and emotionally, like making sure that like we have the support, the knowledge, the tools, and like the the friendship, even for me, you know, just yeah, that yeah, we weren't alone in like while we knew that to some degree we were gonna be alone, we weren't alone, you know, like we still had we still had people who were like rock on guys, like it's okay, you know. And so like that felt good for me. And I know that like you trusting like just the the trust between the two of us was was really because obviously, you know, it's like I've I've seen so many, so many stories, this, that, and the other thing of oh, well, my husband isn't comfortable with this, or my husband doesn't like that, or you know, I have to I'm doing this because my husband, you know, doesn't whatever, like bringing it back to the even hiring a birth photographer, my husband's not comfortable with that, or we I'm not having home birth because my husband's afraid something's gonna go wrong, or just all of these things. And I'm like, then your husband has work to do, my friend. That's not, it is not, it is not my job to make him comfortable. It is his job to make me comfortable and to meet me where I'm at, not the other way around. It's his job to do the work that and maybe for some men that might be a lot, and for some men, maybe that's not a lot.

Cam: 1:41:56

And if if if you know it's like it comes down to that where I feel uncomfortable, or let's say the the man feels uncomfortable, you gotta get comfortable, and it's his it's his job to communicate his discomfort with you, his significant, his wife, whatever, so that he can get over that and support you.

Alannah: 1:42:17

Right. Not not in a way where like I'm gonna communicate my worries, because that was the thing, is like I I wanted to hear if you were afraid, if you had a concern, if you were whatever. I wanted to know those things because I knew that it like in our relationship with him, like I knew that that wasn't him saying, I don't want to be a part of this, I don't want to do it this way, I'm too afraid, blah, blah, blah. It was just working through whatever.

Cam: 1:42:44

And you know, it was never understand what's going on. If there's something that is worrying me or concerning me about it, it was like I'm gonna ask about it. I'm gonna ask you or Morgan or whoever a question so that I can get the knowledge that I need so that I can either feel more comfortable or at the very least have enough of an understanding about it that in the moment, although I feel uncomfortable uncomfortable about it, I have the knowledge to be able to like be a little bit grounded in that situation. Yeah, and to to deal with it.

Alannah: 1:43:22

Yeah, and I feel like you know, there's there's this difference between like communicating a fear or a concern or whatever, and wanting to work saying those things so that then, you know, me in this situation, then I have to do something to make him feel better. And like I didn't ever feel like that was what like you didn't really have a whole lot of concern necessarily, but if you had something to say, I never felt like it was you being like, fix that for me.

Speaker 5: 1:43:55

Right.

Alannah: 1:43:56

You know, it was just we're a team, we're gonna talk about it. I still trust you, and this is what I'm thinking or feeling or whatever, you know? And I think that that that that is like such a thing that has to like stop. Like, I mean, I'm guilty of it, making other people comfortable when I'm giving birth. And that's not right. Like when you're pregnant, laboring, birthing, postpartum, it is not your job to make other people comfortable or to make other people feel better ever. It is your job to do what you need to do for you and your baby, whatever that means. And it is your partner's job to, I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say, man up and take care of, take care of what whatever piece of you you need to take care of to be able to be that support and that cheerleader and that that strength for your partner when they're giving birth and whatever you need to do to protect whatever space she feels most comfortable in, because that that is what you need to do. That's what's important.

Cam: 1:45:09

It's not if I it's not about you, no offense. If it's not if I feel uncomfortable about something, it's I I I don't have the expectation that you're going to fix whatever it is to make me feel comfortable. Like I it's that's not how I want to be.

Alannah: 1:45:28

Yeah, and I never felt that.

Cam: 1:45:30

Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad.

Alannah: 1:45:31

Yeah.

Cam: 1:45:32

But it's like it's it's the man's job to create the the the space, the the the vessel for you to be able to just be surrender and be, yeah.

Alannah: 1:45:46

Yeah, which for us was a mixture of the living room and the bedroom. Yes. You kept the space for me in that way for for the babies. So yeah.

Angela: 1:46:00

Awesome. So, Cam, how were you feeling as like you got closer to the birth? And like as the birth was approaching, did you like, yeah, how were you feeling about everything?

Cam: 1:46:09

So I a a big part of my anxiety leading up to the birth, birth, birth.

Alannah: 1:46:19

I guess it would be birthday. Yeah, yeah.

Cam: 1:46:22

Plural, yeah, was like a financial burden for me. And partly because it I mean, like it it was expensive. It wasn't inherently expensive. I mean, like outside the system it was expensive.

Alannah: 1:46:44

Yeah, when you hire support that your insurance doesn't cover.

Speaker 5: 1:46:48

Right. It's yeah.

Cam: 1:46:50

But as a as an entrepreneur, like my income only comes when I make it, it's not I didn't I don't have a job. I can't request for time off and get PTO and like be home supporting my wife and my family and my babies while also getting money.

Alannah: 1:47:16

Like I pressure, financial pressure.

Cam: 1:47:19

And so with our first, I took two weeks off. With our second, I took three three weeks off. With our third, I took it six weeks off. And then with our fourth and fifth, like going into that, I didn't know what to expect because with the other three, I was an employee for another company. So I got I requested time off and I got it. And then for certain jobs, I had that PTO. So like I had the I had that support, let's call it support. I had the the money coming in. So I could just be home and trust that we had the money to do what we needed to do, and I could support my family. But so in the last year was a big growth year for me on a on a personal level, but also like on a business level. Like I was like growing a business and it went really well. But then there was also that added stress of knowing that come at the time I was thinking March. Come March, which is like right before my busy season starts, like my really, really busy season takes off, right? So there was a level of, okay, this is good because it's the quiet time. So like it's gonna be easier for me to take time off because there's inherently less work for me to do. My my lead flow slows down a little bit in the winter time. So like I was already nervous about that. It's a nervous thing as a as a more or less seasonal business owner, knowing that things were gonna slow down already, but then knowing that like I'm trying to take that time off. I was nervous, and that was honestly most of where my fear stemmed from was how am I going to successfully be there to support my wife, my new babies, babies, and my already like halfway grown three boys, you know, like that I had so much that I needed to be for my family, and then also carrying the weight of knowing that like I need to make the space to be the support emotionally for everyone, but I also need to make money because life goes on, life carries on. Like we we need to buy groceries every week, we like the electric bill is due every month, our mortgage is due every month, and but also like I needed you so much. Well, and and I needed to be there for you and for the like I needed that for me because it was a there's it was a kind of a redemption thing for me because I feel like with look looking back at our first birth, it's hard to think of you said it, it's like it's hard to think about, it's hard to talk about that. A big part of what I carry from that is I I don't know if I want to say shame, but like the regret that I wasn't what you or we needed me to be back then. Like I I wasn't the man or like the husband that we both needed me to be back then, right? Because I was young and I was immature and I didn't know what I was doing, and I didn't have the confidence to be able to do what I needed to do in the moment or after the fact with us. And so this was that redemption for me because I needed to be there in the moment when their birth was happening, but also be able to support you in that while also carrying the like that I need to support financially forever. So that was that was honestly the biggest part for me was going into it and knowing how much of this that I want to like hold on my shoulders as like these are non-negotiables for me. I need to be supportive, I need to be there, I need to make sure that Alana stays in the bed and rests for as long as possible and doesn't have to worry about the mental load of what are we gonna have for dinner? Who's eaten, who's had snacks, have you napped? Do we have enough diapers? Do we have enough wipes? I needed to be able to be there for that. And then also navigating the world of like making sure that I'm providing. Yeah, that I'm making sure that I'm aware of like, am I marketing my business enough that when I can go back to work, that I'm gonna have work to go back to? Am I like setting enough money aside now before the babies come that I can bridge that gap and stay home as long as I want to without really feeling the need to like, I need to go back to work full time today, or we're fucked. You know, like yeah, so that was something that like I've I've hated to talk about with people because I feel like it's such a I don't know that you've really talked about that with me. It's such a blah thing. It's like, what was the hardest part about the babies and finding out about twins and like leading up money and like being worried about like my business and like running my business while also being well being because like we're a one-income household, you know.

Alannah: 1:53:01

I'm not I'm obviously not working.

Angela: 1:53:04

Um, and when I was, I'm not like doing photography like full time, so it's it was just really all I feel like this is a really common thing a lot of families deal with, like leading up to like labors and birth, like even regardless of where you're doing it. I feel like a lot of dads are just like, Oh, but you know, we gotta like their like idea of nesting almost is like replacing the water heater or like you know, something.

Cam: 1:53:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh it's something that like I I feel I feel silly having that be my biggest fear or my biggest anxiety point.

Alannah: 1:53:39

But also that's kind of cool though, because that also means that like you really trusted birth for that to not be your number one, like oh no, oh, this is all I have to worry about. Like you were worried about providing postpartum support and making sure that we were okay financially and all of that.

Cam: 1:53:58

So that's and I mean I was also even looking ahead to times like now, or like the last 10 months of like, what is like what did my what did my normal work week look like last summer, right? Like I'm working Monday through Friday. Like I tried already try to have shorter days. So, like, what's that gonna look like now that we've got the twins at home? And so like I'm gonna feel this pull to be home supporting as much as possible, more so than I ever have before, while also trying to like move my business forward, right? So it's having that that balance of I don't know, when you play that role of like the like the head of household, right? Where it's like I'm the I'm I'm gonna say it like I'm the CEO of our home, but I'm also the CEO of my business. And so like playing that role on two fronts and having one not really be able to take priority over the other because they are so integrated with each other was it was hard. It was hard, especially because for so long I have worked so hard to have such a a clear separation between like work and home. So to like feel like I have to kind of have them commingle a little bit more to be able to be able to wrap my brain around how things are gonna work, and even now it's difficult. I don't know, it's just it's it's it's tricky, it's it's tricky. So that was my biggest honestly, like I was not worried about the logistics of having the babies at home.

Speaker 5: 1:55:54

Like that wasn't that wasn't a worry for me surprisingly.

Angela: 1:56:04

That's awesome. You're just like, I trust Alana. Alana's got this. That's that's cool. Oh my gosh. Well, okay, so now how was the birth? Like, what was your experience?

Cam: 1:56:17

Oh no, that was that was wild because I feel like I because it was as early as it was, I was still I was still in my prep phase, but I think I was in the prep phase where like I was already laying the groundwork with certain customers. Like, hey, I know we've got you on the schedule for three weeks from now, but my wife is due. So in the event that the babies come, we're gonna have to be flexible with scheduling. I'll be I'll let you know that we're gonna have to reschedule and then I'll be in touch as soon as I can.

Alannah: 1:56:57

And then my water breaks.

Cam: 1:56:59

And I'm literally like I left the house to go and it was just what it was one of those days. I left the house to go and pick up breakfast five minutes down the road. It was at the service plots.

Alannah: 1:57:11

I was like, we just need to do that today.

Cam: 1:57:13

And one of my one of my customers who I have been doing work for her for like five five years now. She just is she's one of those women who she calls me for everything. She's this sweet lady. Like, we have like a friendship, right? And so she calls me for everything. She had a leak, and it wasn't something that I was gonna fix, or she just needed an opinion. She wanted to have my opinion because she trusted me. So so I talked her through some stuff, and I'm like, yeah, my God, of course. And it actually ended up being something I could help her with. So I was like, I will I will be down in that area next week. I'll make a plan to swing by, I'll throw the ladder up, I'll take a look. Don't worry, Cindy, it's fine. Well, like I'm like reassuring her that everything's gonna be okay, that I'm gonna help her, I'm gonna be there, you know, oh my god, it's great. And then at this, literally at the exact same time, my wife is at home, and this is starting to happen, right? So I tell her all this stuff like we've got an appointment on this day for to go see like the we're gonna that day. Was it that day?

Alannah: 1:58:18

That day. We were supposed to go to Morgan that day.

Cam: 1:58:22

Yeah, I'm telling her we have an appointment today, so we're gonna hear the babies or whatever, and like, but we'll we've still got a month, so I can make it down to take a look and I can like set your mind at ease, yada yada. I get home, and literally it was just like all of a sudden, because she I was calm.

Speaker 8: 1:58:42

No, you don't you were fine, it was fine, it was not Cam.

Cam: 1:58:46

What come here, you know, and I go down and she's just she had gone from the bathroom into the bedroom, and she's just standing there right in that tree, and it's like um, and there's you know water, there's liquid on the ground, and it's like continuing.

Alannah: 1:59:06

And we're I'm just like I was like, I got a towel, I got you know, I like put it on and like wiped your leg, you know, sat you down on the bed, and then I was like, Grab me, grab me a a chuck's pad, yeah.

Cam: 1:59:22

And then it was just like at that point, it was like, okay, there are things that need to happen, right?

Alannah: 1:59:29

And so you just went in go mode then well, because the boys were already getting ready to head out the door to go to grandma's house.

Cam: 1:59:38

So remember to play, it was already in the works, it wasn't because 'cause we were supposed to be leaving, we were already supposed to be going.

Alannah: 1:59:46

So they were already the plan was for them to be at grandma's house for a little bit. And um, and so that stayed the plan. They still went and yeah, and then it was just kind of like, Oh, oh, oh, but it's we're not leaving now.

Cam: 2:00:00

Yeah. And so like I it was like I called my mom and did I tell her right then that we weren't going?

Alannah: 2:00:09

I think no, I did.

Cam: 2:00:11

Okay.

Alannah: 2:00:11

Because I was like, don't freak out, don't act natural. Just wanted to let you know my water broke. You know, she was like, Huh, um what do we do? I was like, nothing. Nothing.

Cam: 2:00:21

Don't do anything. But basically, like letting her know that like the boys are still coming to your house, but we're not leaving.

Speaker 10: 2:00:28

Yeah.

Cam: 2:00:28

And she okay, right? And then I'm like, I got cute. And it was like, okay, we gotta get the tub blown up.

Speaker 10: 2:00:40

Yeah.

Cam: 2:00:40

Before we can fill it, we have to get the tub blown up with air first. So it's like, okay, blow up the tub. Gotta which we had it blown up not that long before because they put the lights in it. Yeah. It was a whole but blown up the tub. She's in the in the in the living room. I'm having the tub blow up while I'm frantically, not really frantically, rushing around vacuuming, like picking up the little things. Why are all of these toys on the counter? I'm gonna, you know, like getting everything ready so that like when the event happens and I and I walk out into the kitchen, that I'm not like holy crap, because like the boys' stuff is here and this, this, that, you know. So, but then like I could tell that like you were you needed to be done with that transition phase and actually start to like be in the moment and then got you down into the bedroom. And I feel like I don't know, that just happened so yeah quickly.

Alannah: 2:01:44

Well, because I called you over to be like, I need you, you need to be done. I want to get in the tub, and I was like crying, and you were like, um, okay, I just like feel like I gotta do it.

Cam: 2:01:56

The tough thing was that like I was vacuuming, but I was so I was filling the tub from a hose from the bathroom into the bedroom, right? So I'm vacuuming, but then at the same time trying to get the temperature of the water right. Yeah, so like I'm running in and like putting the thermometer in the water, making sure, and then I have to like adjust the temperature right.

Alannah: 2:02:21

And it got to the point where I it was so hot that I'm running just cold water in, and then it I remember you after the fact being like, who knew that keeping the water temperature was gonna be like the hardest part?

Cam: 2:02:35

Oh my god. Well, yeah, because like I don't I I don't have an active temperature gauge of what the water is currently. I just need to okay, it's starting to feel a little cold. We got but then I also don't have an active temperature gauge on the water that I'm putting into it. It's just whatever type okay, it's not boiling, so so like, yeah, that was difficult, but you know, then we we got you into the bedroom just barely, and it it was a whole thing to get you into the tub, period, because like the amount of pressure I felt in my body was like I don't know how I'm gonna lift my leg.

Alannah: 2:03:16

I literally, I think I was like, I can't lift my legs.

Cam: 2:03:18

But then I'm trying to get her into the tub alone because there's like no one else there, but then getting her into this tub, it's a blow-up tub. So there's nothing structural for her to like put her weight on while I'm holding her to get so like all of it is on me trying to get her into the tub safe safely. Yeah, because like I have like a mat on the floor for like after good old shower curtain on the floor under the tub, but even a dry shower curtain slippery slippery. So like I'm just I'm terrified that like I I gotta get oh yeah, the babies are coming, I should be scared about that, but no, no, I'm scared to get you into the tub safely first because like we gotta do that, and like so like I don't know. I feel like I it was very much the things that you were worried about.

Alannah: 2:04:12

That's so funny.

Cam: 2:04:13

Well, because I was only worried about the things that like what was immediately in front of like I couldn't afford to be worried about later, yeah. What was what hap something that hasn't happened yet? So like I like I'm like, okay, I gotta get you into the tub. The baby's not coming right this second. I gotta get you into the tub. I know. Right, yeah. I have no idea.

Angela: 2:04:31

But oh my gosh, so had we arrived at this point yet, or just you guys still?

Alannah: 2:04:36

It was still just us. Brie got there. I mean, it wasn't long after that. No, it was it was not long after that. Like, I mean, what, maybe like 10 minutes max or something, like it was it was not long. Because I texted her and said And you were like, Where are you?

Cam: 2:04:56

Because she had told Alana that she was just gonna hang around that was before I realized it was real, but she I texted her and said, you know, where are you? You should come. And she goes, I was already coming. Like she wasn't just hanging around in August, she was on a she was already on her way because she was like, Yeah, I I had a I had a feeling.

Speaker 6: 2:05:17

Yeah, I'm gonna be near, yeah.

Cam: 2:05:19

I'm almost there. Like, literally at that point, she was like, I'm five minutes away. So doors, doors were unlocked, you know. You come and go, it I I had already sent the no the dogs. No, the dogs were there.

Alannah: 2:05:35

The dogs were there.

Cam: 2:05:36

Um we were ready, like we were in the I had set the I had I had you set the phone up with the tripod. My phone set up, yeah, pointing at the pool to just in case Bree didn't make it, right? Needed to get it, and but then it had switched over to exactly what I had talked about before, where like I'm just her spiritual support.

Alannah: 2:06:01

Like I literally just like there and yeah, because that was then it was like, yeah, okay, like this is this is real.

Cam: 2:06:09

We're breathing through contractions, and like you're like, I'm still in my own head, I'm trying to gauge, like, okay, the contractions stop. I didn't I don't want to be like, did the is it over? Like, but I'm like, but I'm still trying to like I don't want to ask you, is did that contraction end? Is it did it end? I'm timing it. Did it end? I'm trying to, but I'm like looking at you, I'm like, I think it's over. Okay, so I can kind of gauge like how long they're going for, how much time there is in between them, just so I can like, you know, you're just trying to like make sense of everything. Yeah, so I knew what was going on, right? Not that I knew what was going on even with that information, yeah. But but like I don't I just feel like it there was a there was a moment where like a a switch kind of flipped. Bree got there, yeah, and like you didn't acknowledge her.

Alannah: 2:07:12

Yes, I did.

Cam: 2:07:13

Very little though. Well, just yeah, it was like a hey, yeah.

Alannah: 2:07:16

Well, she came, yeah, she said, What do you need? And and I was like the get I was like, get your camera. Like that was it, yeah.

Cam: 2:07:23

Yeah, and it was very much just like that was it from me. We didn't like we were very much it was like it was just it was time.

Alannah: 2:07:31

It was like oh, it sure was, yeah.

Cam: 2:07:34

And I feel like it was like not long after she got there that that switch flipped, and it was very clear that he was I mean, she was there for maybe like five minutes or something, like it was very not even I just hit the video not long ago, and I I think it was like just made it, it was less than five minutes.

Alannah: 2:07:53

Probably, yeah.

Cam: 2:07:54

Yeah, I I'm almost 100% sure it was less than five minutes.

Alannah: 2:07:58

It was it was not long.

Cam: 2:07:59

Thank god, and he he came. I mean, you like you I was you were ready to get him, right? Oh, I was I was I was completely over the tub. I was like my my whole forearm, both forearms were completely in the water. Ready? I was kneeling.

Alannah: 2:08:20

No, you were just hunching, I was standing, yeah.

Cam: 2:08:24

Like leaned all the way over, and I was in the water without being in the water, right? And then, like, yeah, he started to come. Like, I could like his head was there, but like he just he just came very, very quickly out, like, and then all of a sudden he was just there and like out of the water and like handed to you. But you did that, I know, I know, like you did, you did that. That's the thing, is like before I was that like force with you to like get you through those waves, and I was just kind of like holding your hand sort of thing through them, but like in that your labor support was really brief this time. It was like did my labor support was vacuuming because you were laboring in the in the bedroom or in the living room pretty much. I was just on the couch, yeah. But waiting, like you weren't like it was just like you were just like waiting for me to be done vacuuming so that you could start laboring. But what we didn't realize is that you were late. That was it, yeah. But we get you in the top, and then like I don't know, it was just like it happened very quickly, and then all of a sudden it was just I was I was catching him and like just bringing him out of the water to you, and it just happened so quickly, I didn't even I didn't even think about it. You just caught him. It was it was really beautiful, honestly, it was really cool. And like how natural the process of him coming out and like bringing him up and out to you, and then like seeing the way that you like your like shock and awe and excitement of like there's like your baby, but like also like the act of I don't know what to do, but like you knew like to like check him and to like do the things, and I'm like counting his toes, it's like that's all I'm good. You know, I can see like you know, like he had two of that, two of those, and there's two of those, and there's ten, you know, like I taking inventory, that's important, that's good. But but then also like knowing that like the bait he's out, you're like making sure he's breathing and like holding him and whatnot, and but then also that there was a there's another one coming.

Alannah: 2:10:59

I didn't I wasn't there yet with that. I was not there, it was I feel like neither of us were, but um I finally you had your moment, you finally had your moment, you caught our baby. Yeah, after all all the other three, I wanted you to catch one of them. All of I wanted you to catch all of them, and it never happened, and finally you caught you caught him, you did it.

Cam: 2:11:25

Yeah, that was cool. That was really cool.

Alannah: 2:11:28

And it was just yeah, not to minimize, but it was just that. You just just did it.

Cam: 2:11:36

Yeah, it was just you and me, and some person with a camera in friend, okay, brilliant professional photographer, but like not a midwife, not it was just the two of us in an inflatable bathtub at the foot of our bed in our bedroom at our house.

Speaker 8: 2:11:59

Just like we wanted.

Cam: 2:12:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like there were no there was no prepping prepping for a potential emergency. Like there was no there was no interference.

Alannah: 2:12:16

It was awesome.

Cam: 2:12:18

Yeah.

Alannah: 2:12:18

Yeah. Like you like.

Cam: 2:12:20

Even though there was that inherent anxiety or stress, it wasn't like an active stress or like an active anxiety. It was just the latent background anxiety that you get because your your adrenaline just fully cleaned. You're in an active thing. Like you're doing a thing that matters. You're not just you're not just cleaning the kitchen doing a thing. Like you're it's a big deal. It is a your your your wife is giving my wife was giving birth. And I was catching to the the baby in a in a tub in my in my bedroom. Like it was, I don't know. It was I was to to live bit and not just see it through a camera lens was it was cool. It was cool.

Angela: 2:13:12

I agree.

Cam: 2:13:13

Yeah.

Angela: 2:13:14

So in Alano's podcast, she talks about a moment after the first baby was born, before the second baby started to emerge, like kind of some logistical things coming up, just kind of navigating through that. She's kind of saying that maybe in her head she was like trying to figure out, but that you were super calm, super calm through. Yeah.

Alannah: 2:13:33

So like how was that? Who can hold this baby?

Angela: 2:13:36

How was your like possible like after the first birth? Yeah, into the second.

Alannah: 2:13:40

There was the there was the well, like the the in-between, because you were well, Eli's Oh, oh, because his cord was a rip. I forgot about that. Yeah. Twice.

Cam: 2:13:51

Yeah. Oh. Because he came out. I forgot about that. Yeah, me too. Came out, and it came out, he came out like I don't know, really.

Alannah: 2:13:59

He was fine.

Cam: 2:14:00

Easy.

Alannah: 2:14:00

Yeah. But like his cord was around his neck twice. And so obviously, you gotta kind of get that off.

Cam: 2:14:07

But then also there's like the cord is still attached to you. And so like you know, you're not trying to rip that thing apart, obviously. When you're untangling a rope, you want to like look at the whole thing, but like you can't do that. So, like, and I also can't see because it was so tight around his neck that like you can't see what and because it was twice which loop was first. I couldn't, so I'm like trying to reach it and also pull it out and over at the same time in my head, knowing that if I grabbed the wrong one, I would maybe make it more entangled worse. So trying to do that.

Alannah: 2:14:46

And I I even tried at one point to get one of the loops, but it felt tight, and I just remember being like, Don't pull too hard. Yeah, don't pull too hard.

Cam: 2:14:54

But I so like I had to like keep him obviously above water because he had already come out, but also pull him back enough that like I could get the there was the coroner rather there was enough slack to be able to get it over and then undone again.

Alannah: 2:15:10

And I forgot about that, yeah.

Cam: 2:15:11

Yeah, that was you were calm.

Alannah: 2:15:14

I feel like I feel like both of us were a little bit like oh it was like a oh, we got a thing we need to deal with really quick.

Cam: 2:15:21

But it was like a thing that we just but we just dealt with it. It wasn't like, oh, we have a thing we need to deal with, panic, right?

Alannah: 2:15:30

Like I remember having a little bit of feeling of like, like I said, where I was like, don't pull too hard. Because obviously a broken umbilical cord is an emergency, and you don't want that. And obviously, we are not we don't on the daily unwrap umbilical cords from babies next. So that was a whole thing where it was for me, I am fully like I've never been like in my body present as much as I was for the these two, and so I immediately it was you know, I'm like, don't pull too hard. I try to do it, but I was like, eh. So like I'm just holding him like on my belly, and Cam is like trying to get the and and you did, and you were calm, and and and I felt some sort of like a little bit of like, huh, okay. Like a little, but it wasn't it wasn't anything that made me uncomfortable, and it wasn't anything that like totally shifted the vibe of the room. It was just this very brief, like, oh, hang on a minute, we gotta deal with this. It got dealt with, and then it was like, oh my god, our baby's here, and he's perfect, and he's so cute, and it was cool, yeah.

Cam: 2:16:42

And and then, and then I feel like then once once he was out and he was fine. I'm like, how I don't know how to push out another baby and I'm holding a baby, and how do we you can't hold the baby and catch the other baby in a bathtub, and and and you're you're like because you're going through the motions of giving birth, like you're not entirely aware of what's physically like happening immediately around you, right? Where it's like you might just slump down farther into the water because you're focusing on pushing or whatever it is, but like we you had a baby already in the water with you, still connected to you. So even if we wanted to, I couldn't like here hand him off to someone else.

Alannah: 2:17:34

There was no one else, right?

Cam: 2:17:36

I could have taken him, but yeah, like you said, then I couldn't be there to to catch the other one, too.

Alannah: 2:17:41

Yeah, so I was having this like pretty brief, but like very real, logistical, like, um, yeah, who's gonna hold this baby?

Cam: 2:17:52

So it's like I'll watch the baby, and like we situated you and him up enough that he was good. And then I literally I'm just like, Brie. Yeah, both of us we were like make sure that he stays above water. Like if he comes, like tell us.

Alannah: 2:18:05

I remember saying that to her, like, Brie, watch him, you know, and of course she's like, Yeah, I got it, yeah, I got it, you're good, you're good, you know, and it was fine. And at no point was anybody like lift him up, you know.

Cam: 2:18:18

We weren't even close to needing to be worried about it, but then like we moved on to the next one, and um, but like it hadn't even crossed my mind in in a while that she might come out brief.

Alannah: 2:18:38

Same. I actually described that in in the last episode where I was like during labor and all that, it never was not even a thing that's like your even in your pregnancy leading up to it.

Cam: 2:18:49

Like, obviously, it was a thing that like he was this way, she was this way, and like because of that, he's likely gonna drop down with his head, and then she'll probably slip down feet first. Like, we knew that that was possible, but it never really like we had talked about that in our appointments, like it was a thing where like we knew that it was possible, but that it wasn't an emergency until it was an emergency, and yada yada. But but it was always kind of one of those things where it was like uh an abstract, like if this happens, and hopefully we'll deal with this, and hopefully it'll be like this.

Alannah: 2:19:29

Hopefully, it won't even be a thing at all, and but then you know I was like, I feel her feet, right?

Cam: 2:19:36

And then it's like, oh yeah, yeah, that we both I didn't realize that you had kind of forgotten too, because it's dying, and then I'm looking down and I'm literally seeing her little little her two little feet and legs sticking out in the water, and I'm like, Oh shit. I forgot, and yeah, I had forgotten, but it was Honestly, probably a good thing that like I didn't know.

Alannah: 2:20:04

Yeah, like we weren't carrying that, like during labor and during all of that. That's like that, it was only in the moment where we like, oh, our baby's breach. Okay.

Cam: 2:20:14

Right.

Alannah: 2:20:15

And now we have to move on.

Cam: 2:20:16

I kind of had enough of an understanding in our conversations leading up to it of like what we want to happen in the event that she comes out breached, like as far as like what's safe.

Alannah: 2:20:31

And you know, especially we don't want her arms up. And we like, and then obviously her arms were up, and we don't, you know, all of these things.

Cam: 2:20:41

And not only were her arms up, but she was out. She was so tangled. She was out up to her up to her armpits. Because it was like we were literally like trying to see about the idea of getting her arms down, and it was in that process that we realized that she was already out up to her armpits. And she was tangled in the cord was wrapped around her chest under her arms.

Alannah: 2:21:13

And didn't you? It was on around her.

Cam: 2:21:15

It was around it was around her ankle once. And so she came out foot first, it was around her ankle, and it split up to like her leg. So it was wrapped around her leg one time.

Alannah: 2:21:26

And then her body.

Cam: 2:21:27

And then it was wrapped around her, like her chest.

Alannah: 2:21:30

And I remember you being like, I see, because of course, like I could feel, I could, you know, I was very like aware and there, but that part I was not, I wasn't feeling the cord on her body. You know, that wasn't such a thing for me. And I remember you saying, um, I think that her like it looks like her cord is around, like she's tangled up in her cord. Do do you want me to do? Do I need to do something? And I was like, Yeah. If if you can, you know, because obviously if it was super tight or if it was whatever, I'm like, don't then. But I was like, if if you can, yes, untangle her.

Cam: 2:22:06

Well, right. And I remember getting it off of her leg was difficult because she was already like two thirds out, and it was wrapped around her chest first. And come to find out after the fact, she also had a short cord.

Alannah: 2:22:24

Yeah, it was short.

Cam: 2:22:25

It was really, really hard for me to get it out and around her foot because it was very tight. It was like really, there was no play at all. Yeah. And so to do that was really hard. But then also the act of like actually getting the cord undone from her, like around her chest. It was I was difficult, and it probably should have been really scary for me, but it it wasn't. I don't know. I I'm I'm sure it was my own body being like, turn all of that off. You can't afford to be panicked right now. So like it was just like cool.

Alannah: 2:23:11

I remember like during the process of her birth, you being like, Do you need me to do this? Do you want this? Like, you you were asking me various questions. I don't even remember all the questions at this point. And I remember at one point just being like, drop the fuck off. Yeah, like, don't ask me anything else. Like, and I know that it was just you wanting to make sure that you were providing the support that was most supportive, but also me being like, just just let it be, let it, let whatever. And yeah, that was kind of funny because you know, I'm like, thank you, but shh. Yeah.

Cam: 2:23:49

Oh wild.

Alannah: 2:23:51

Yeah. And yeah, I don't know. Like, how were you? How did you end up feeling like? Because I remember being like, I can't get her out. I don't know. I remember you being like, Do you need do I do I need to do something? And me being like, No, I don't know.

Cam: 2:24:05

Yeah, honestly, I don't remember. No, no, I don't remember.

Speaker 8: 2:24:10

Oh, that's funny. Yeah, you were just like waiting.

Cam: 2:24:15

Well, no, because I I I know that I I told you to push again because she was already because I because I told you that she she's mostly out, like she is mostly out. It is it is just the the like her her shoulders and her head. That's it. Like she is all I'm holding her.

Alannah: 2:24:36

Like I know you can't.

Cam: 2:24:37

I have her whole body.

Alannah: 2:24:39

I know you kept telling you were like, I've got I have our dog. I have like she's in my hands, I have her, you can do it, like you're yeah, and I just remember that like you gave that last little push, and I just little sir, I don't think so.

Cam: 2:24:55

The last push, yeah, and I kind of just like held her, like, and she just came right out, and man, that was wild.

Speaker 5: 2:25:10

That was wild. Oh my god. And then you took her, and I think it was that that point.

Cam: 2:25:18

Did I just take it?

Alannah: 2:25:19

Well, you were well, you were trying to like hand her to me, but I only had one hand, yeah, because I had our other baby, and so I ended up being like, you take him. Because I could also see that she was floppy.

Speaker 2: 2:25:29

Yeah, yeah.

Alannah: 2:25:30

And so I'm like, I gotta, I'm gonna like, I gonna deal with this. I need to receive her. And so I handed, yeah. I'm like, you take him. But obviously they're both still attached, so it couldn't really go very much. Pretty far, no. That was yes, that was when that was when you um you you got in the tub to to be nearby to hold them or hold him, and then and then I was able to kind of like assess her and you know, talk to her, kind of stimulate her some, look at her. Like I had said in the other episode, I kind of did a little mouth to mouth sort of with her because I knew she was okay. I very much felt that she was okay. But also, like, I could try to perk you up a little bit. I could try to, you know, just kind of for even for my own self, just be like, yeah, all right, you you are good. So, so yeah, so that was when you were in the tub and you were holding, you were holding one, and I was holding the other one, and we kind of just were like, Oh my god. Yeah, wow. We had our moment soup, yeah, and that birth soup was pretty gnarly, I will say. But you got right in and you sat there with me, and we just like had our uninterrupted time.

Cam: 2:26:55

Yeah, it was cool. That was cool. We've never had that, no, and like I don't know, just holding them in that in that moment was like different than holding your newborn. It's like it's it's just it's different because you're I mean, like the pool is interesting in and of itself because you think about it and it's like an extended womb.

Alannah: 2:27:21

So it's like because all that was in is now out.

Cam: 2:27:26

Well, and it's it's it's water, it's what it's it's it's water, so it's like you're in their I don't know, you're in their space, and then but they're also still connected to you, which is a different kind of connection, I guess. Where like I'm holding these babies and you just gave birth to them right here, and they're still they are both still connected to you. And yeah, I don't know that that was um that that was cool, and then and then needing to get a a bowl for the placentas was yes, we we sent we sent Brie out into the living room to get a bowl off of our shelves.

Alannah: 2:28:27

And I remember like when they finally came out, like you and you were touching them, and I was like, Oh wow, good for you. Like you were not creeped out or grossed out. Yeah, you helped me like schlep them into the bowl, but then we were also trying to see if they were too individual or if they had fused, so we were both just kind of popping them around.

Cam: 2:28:49

I remember having them both in the bowl and using my hand to pour out the to strain the placentas to get the water out and keep the like that's something that keep it floating. It's like straining pasta, but it was not, you know, it's like this is such a normal act to be doing, but I'm doing it with a literal organ. Two of them, two of them.

Alannah: 2:29:15

Yeah, yeah. Plus the thing is like birth is so normal, right? Like it's not this whole thing, it's just just birth, right? Like, if it's not made to be this big whole thing, then it just isn't this big whole thing. It just is. That's how I felt like it was all just it was fine. It was normal. Nothing felt off. At no point was I like, oh no, we've made a mistake. Oh no, we should leave. Oh no, we need to call stuff. Like, no, it was literally just like everything about staying home in the moment, even though, you know, because there really could have been those moments when I first went into labor for either one of us to be like freaking, oh no, no, no, no, we gotta go. We take it back. We take it back. We don't want to do it. Um, and for me, anyway, at no point did I have that. It was like we're just home and we're just gonna have our babies, and that's it. There was there was not a second thought. And I kind of felt surprised by that because we had had three hospital births. We had never had a home birth, let alone twins, let alone not having a midwife. Like all of these things were very new, very it was like a big deal, but also it was just so just a casual Thursday.

Speaker 2: 2:30:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Angela: 2:30:45

I love like Wapio describes it as the father receiving the light. Like the father put that light there, you carried the light for nine months, and then like the father's supposed to receive the light, which like doesn't happen in these hospital births, and even a lot of home birth, but like, yeah. So for you to like be the one to receive the light, like it changes. Like you, as a relationship, like also, like, doesn't it? Like, what are your thoughts on that? Like your relationships, like after you know, this birth.

Cam: 2:31:16

I feel like it it helps. It helps because I I feel like in our own babies aside, we were already in this journey of like self-reflection and growth. And like I was trying to, I'm trying to do better, right? And then like trying to do better in our own relationship. And I feel like it's one of those things that like kind of helped to take what's been there and kind of help to solidify what like what really is important in in that moment in in our relationship where it's like it's not it's not this big thing. It's like this is us, and this is what it's all about. Because our whole relationship was founded and created toward guiding ourselves to making like growing a family, like that's like what it was, right? And like this is the culmination of that, but then this is like this is this thing that now we have to take and help to grow into our family. So like I don't know, it was really cool to see that and to feel that because I feel like catching babies it it felt like like you said, receiving the light, like you were handing something off to me. Not like to just take and run with, but like this is our new, this is our journey together, and like this is what we're carrying, and like before it was just like we're I'm holding my new baby for the first time, but it's like I literally received them into this world in a totally different way. It it's it's totally different, it's very cool. Um you don't I will never get over it how it felt to actually like feel them enter this world into my hands in that way was just totally awe-inspiring. I mean, like I just felt it's completely unreal that these babies grew inside of you for so long that the fact that two of them grew inside of you period at the same time, and then now they have like I have received them now is like I don't know, I've never experienced anything like that before. It's just this paradigm shift of like really understanding what my role is in this world, like as uh husband, as a dad, as a man in this world, like that that was a a huge shift for me to understand what's important and like what really is going on around us, just totally shifted my my view on things.

Angela: 2:35:06

Yeah, yeah, that that paradigm shift is really the thing that like I'm trying to highlight here, you know, and it's so so true. Yeah. So as a final question, if you were to give advice to other dads who are expecting either for the first time or multiple babies or even new parents, like what's one of the biggest things you'd want to share with them?

Speaker 5: 2:35:34

I think that one of like the hardest things, at least for me, has been to let go of what you think needs to happen, what you think you need to do, what you think you know about birth, about emotions, period, about the way that the world impacts the way that you feel.

Cam: 2:36:09

Let go of all of that and like really lean into the your ability to communicate with someone, your your wife, your person, about what's really happening, because it's so easy to go into it with your preconceived notions about what birth is, what a woman needs for support during before, during, and after birth, and what a man's role is in that, but that's not it.

Speaker 8: 2:36:58

At least there's like so much more.

Cam: 2:37:00

At least, you know, those ideas that I already had in my head about what birth was and what a man's role is in it, and like what that none of that is real. It's it's totally different when you're actually in it and you talk to the person who is giving birth about what they need, how you can support them, and like you gotta let go of like that. I guess it's the ego or your your ego, your preconceived notions, your it's not about need to be in control because you can be in control without controlling. And like I feel like that's a big part of it was that I had no control over what happened when the twins when you when when you burst the twins. But even though I wasn't I had I had I had no control over how that happened, what happened, but I was completely in control of my reactions to that. And that is something that makes that really, really big difference is like that part of being able to not want to control it, but control the way that you're responding to it.

Alannah: 2:38:31

Yeah, and being on the receiving end of that, like you both of us really having to surrender to the process and to like trust each other, yeah, and the babies and birth, and and for me being on the other end of like what you were talking about just now, like really makes a difference because it it is reassuring knowing that you're bringing it back around, like I'm not having to take care of you.

Speaker 6: 2:39:07

Yeah.

Alannah: 2:39:08

And feeling that sort of like, I want to make sure you're comfortable and I want to make sure you feel fine, and I want to make sure that you're whatever. Like I knew that you it was the other way around.

Speaker 10: 2:39:20

Right.

Alannah: 2:39:21

Where even if you were a little uneasy or if you were a little concerned, or if you were a little afraid, I wasn't feeling all of that from you. And I knew that whatever I needed, you were gonna do it.

Speaker 6: 2:39:35

Right.

Alannah: 2:39:36

And and it wasn't gonna, and it wasn't gonna be a thing. And and it makes it just makes a really big difference being on the other end, knowing that that you're like how you're feeling or what you're thinking or whatever is not completely shifting and altering the vibe, the energy, uh like my energy. And and the the energy and the vibe of like what they're being brought into. And and I mean like what how freaking cool and impactful on our babies that our hands were the only ones and the first ones to touch them and to hold them and to to have received them that way, you know. Super beautiful big deal.

Angela: 2:40:32

Yeah, it definitely is. You guys are awesome. Wow. So Cam, would you just before we go share a little bit maybe about your company and what you do?

Cam: 2:40:43

Yeah, so I own a home service business. So we do primarily exterior cleaning, like window cleaning, gutter cleaning, house washing, roof washing. Um, and then we we also do uh lighting installations. We so we do seasonal holiday lights, like for Christmas time, um, but we also do permanent light installations and event lighting. So kind of uh uh multifaceted, but um exterior home services and uh you don't even tell them the name of your business.

Alannah: 2:41:21

I did on the last episode, okay.

Cam: 2:41:24

Finn property services, and our lighting side is main holiday lighting by Finn Property Services, and it is it is a blast. I love what I do, and uh I love uh I don't know, given that it's it's fun, it's fun. It and the boys love it too, so it's it's always great to to be able to, I don't know, build something for them.

Angela: 2:41:48

So yeah, that's awesome. Family business. Well, I'm gonna link all of your information in the show notes for anybody that might be wanting those things. And yeah, just thank you so much, both of you, for joining me and taking the time to chat with me today. I really appreciate it.

Cam: 2:42:04

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.

Alannah: 2:42:07

I think yeah, I think it's really cool to I think it's cool to kind of have more perspectives from dads out there. I think there's not enough of that. Yeah, especially dads who have experienced both things, like super traumatic um intervention, full hospital birth, kind of more redemptive hospital birth, but then a fully like unassisted twin home birth, also breach, also just all the things, and yeah, to kind of hear both. I think I think it's really cool. So I'm grateful that you shared and talked a lot in the last, you know, in the last week or whatever about all our birth stories and stuff. So to to have us back and hear you talk about it and stuff, I think is cool. And I hope it reaches a dad out there that that maybe is having some fear or some doubts or some something and can maybe better support.

Angela: 2:43:08

Before you go, I just want to remind you, I have a ton of resources for pregnancy and birth. If you're pregnant, whether you're a first-time mom or if this is your fifth baby, I want you to check out the show notes because I have some free trainings and free downloads that you can sign up for, as well as the link to access My Labor of Love, a comprehensive, self-paced online childbirth education course. I created this course specifically for moms who don't want to be told what to do, regardless of where you're birthing or who you're birthing with. And I'd honestly love to teach you everything that I know so that you can prepare for an autonomous birth experience and prepare to step into your role as the leader of your birth journey. So, click to the show notes, check out all of those links, and if you ever have any questions, feel free to DM me at my mainbirth over on Instagram.

Angela Laferriere

143. MyMaine Birth: How We Birth Matters - Part Three - The Power and Transformation in Receiving the Light and Holding the Charge, Cam’s Story

142. MyMaine Birth: How We Birth Matters - Alannah’s Twin Freebirth Story

MyMaine Birth